The Abortion Debate... (2 Viewers)

[girlanachronism]

It would be better, however you start messing around with nature and i believe there's a time when we just end up manufacturing children like comodities, u see what i'm saying?

edit: Since ur sister was diagnosed with having down syndrome, is it possible that ur parents could have aborted her when in reality she was going to live a perfectly happy life?
You argue the same thing when we discussed death sentences, it isn't right for us to decide when somebody should die according to you.

children are commodities, you might as well make them as healthy as possible

the difference between the thing with my sister and the death penalty is that the latter person is ACTUALLY ALIVE. THEY ARE A LIVING, BREATHING, AUTONOMUS HUMAN BEING. of course i'm glad they chose to have my sister! i love her! however if they had chosen to abort her, none of us would know any better. like, it would really be inconsequental one way or the other.

 

[crazyhomo]

How could they misdiagnose her? There must be something else wrong with her that caused them to think it was downe syndrome.

coz doctors never misdiagnose diseases, especially with fetuses in the womb which are so easy to examine

 

[Sophie777]

Right, I was asking what was wrong with her that caused them to think she had downe syndrome? I assume they would have done genetic testing. Usually, when doctors diagnose downe syndrom of a faetus, it is because of physical defects the child has which are associated with that of downe syndrome,.. such as a small stomach or flat head or a cardiac defect.

 

[girlanachronism]

How could they misdiagnose her? There must be something else wrong with her that caused them to think it was downe syndrome.

Those with disabilites would argue with you. They believe that if someone decided that their egg was unsuitable due to the diability being detected, then they wouldn't exist AND that life was worth living regardless of whether they had one arm or two.

are you kidding me? misdiagnosis happens all the time. there is nothing wrong with my sister, other than the fact that she was born with a red spot on her nose, which has since been lasered off.

i never fucking said life isn't worth living if you're disabled, but stop pretending like it's all peaches and cream when it obviously fucking isn't

 

[Sophie777]

not-that-bright is pointing out the most common argument against stem cell research which is feared. Once we start selecting out genetic diseases, parents may start to select blonde hair, brown eyes etc. Therefore, these babies are made to be the manufactured ideal of their parents 'perfect babies'. We will start to be a society similar to that Hitler envisaged.

 

[girlanachronism]

Right, I was asking what was wrong with her that caused them to think she had downe syndrome? I assume they would have done genetic testing. Usually, when doctors diagnose downe syndrom of a faetus, it is because of physical defects the child has which are associated with that of downe syndrome,.. such as a small stomach or flat head or a cardiac defect.

actually it was because of a high something or other count that my mother had, as well as the fact that she was 35 when hannah was born and had had more than one miscarriage before this.

for the record, by the time most women find out that their child has/may have downs, it's around 20 weeks and too late to abort.

 

[girlanachronism]

not-that-bright is pointing out the most common argument against stem cell research which is feared. Once we start selecting out genetic diseases, parents may start to select blonde hair, brown eyes etc. Therefore, these babies are made to be the manufactured ideal of their parents 'perfect babies'. We will start to be a society similar to that Hitler envisaged.

well personally i think finding cures to things like cancer and physical/mental handicaps is far more important than your doomsday visions.

 

[Sophie777]

are you kidding me? misdiagnosis happens all the time. there is nothing wrong with my sister, other than the fact that she was born with a red spot on her nose, which has since been lasered off.

i never fucking said life isn't worth living if you're disabled, but stop pretending like it's all peaches and cream when it obviously fucking isn't

No, actually it doesn't. There is in most cases, something that led to a diagnosis. Doctors do not get it completely wrong ALL OF THE TIME. I believe you that there is nothing wrong with your sister, but the doctor may have seen a defect in the faetus since repaired.

No, you didn't. Nor did I say you did. I said that this was the point of those who are disabled. That if you select eggs with no genetic defects, they wouldn't have been born and that we shouldn't meddle in these things unless to select out fatal genetic diseases. I am not stating my opinion, merely someone elses. I never pretended it was peaches and cream at all, I was making the point that you, with no genetic defects, are not one to judge whether it is appropriate to select eggs with no genetic defects. And, If it was easy as you are proposing, then there would be no such ethical debate as there is.

 

[thejosiekiller]

hay my lil sister had a red spot on her nose as well...they called it a port red/ imo pink birth mark- its fading away by itself so it doesnt need to be lasered off


is that the reason why they thought she was down syndromed?

 

[Sophie777]

well personally i think finding cures to things like cancer and physical/mental handicaps is far more important than your doomsday visions.

Again, you take what I said to be a common fear as being MY fear. Don't you think you shouldn't be so attacking and actually argue your point? I was pointing out what some people fear, I personally agree that selecting out detrimental diseases would be helpful. However, I'm not sure cancers would be cured by pre-birth genetic testing and selection. But if you are talking about stem cell research, I am all for that.

 

[girlanachronism]

No, actually it doesn't. There is in most cases, something that led to a diagnosis. Doctors do not get it completely wrong ALL OF THE TIME. I believe you that there is nothing wrong with your sister, but the doctor may have seen a defect in the faetus since repaired.

No, you didn't. Nor did I say you did. I said that this was the point of those who are disabled. That if you select eggs with no genetic defects, they wouldn't have been born and that we shouldn't meddle in these things unless to select out fatal genetic diseases. I am not stating my opinion, merely someone elses. I never pretended it was peaches and cream at all, I was making the point that you, with no genetic defects, are not one to judge whether it is appropriate to select eggs with no genetic defects. And, If it was easy as you are proposing, then there would be no such ethical debate as there is.

Um, okay, I just asked my aunt (who is a nurse) and she could name me 3 people she knew personally, not to mention all the patients etc over the years. Doctors, although obviously not wrong all the time, often misdiagnose for whatever reason.

True, I have no genetic defects (apart from my epilepsy), but I think you're assuming I think a life with downs etc, is not worth living. This obviously isn't true, but if you know anyone with a disabled child, their lives basically revolve around their child. Its a terrible thing to go through

 

[girlanachronism]

Again, you take what I said to be a common fear as being MY fear. Don't you think you shouldn't be so attacking and actually argue your point? I was pointing out what some people fear, I personally agree that selecting out detrimental diseases would be helpful. However, I'm not sure cancers would be cured by pre-birth genetic testing and selection. But if you are talking about stem cell research, I am all for that.

Yeah I do mean stem cell research, I think you're taking my adovacy of stem cell research as saying that we should genetically engineer our child or something

 

[Sophie777]

I agree with you. I totally and completely agree with you about selecting out all genetic diseases especially those such as huntingtons chorea and cystic fibrosis. I was only giving you the other side of the argument. And, I was only talking about minor disabilities such as one arm. I know that I would rather be alive than not exists because I was going to have one arm. But if somehow this could be selected out and I still be born that would be great.

I didnt disagree that doctors make mistakes. Some are morons. I was wondering if she had something else thats all.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

children are commodities

This is why i think you and me won't come to an agreement....

 

[girlanachronism]

I agree with you. I totally and completely agree with you about selecting out all genetic diseases especially those such as huntingtons chorea and cystic fibrosis. I was only giving you the other side of the argument. And, I was only talking about minor disabilities such as one arm. I know that I would rather be alive than not exists because I was going to have one arm. But if somehow this could be selected out and I still be born that would be great.

I didnt disagree that doctors make mistakes. Some are morons. I was wondering if she had something else thats all.

Oh yeah, I personally would rather have one arm than no life, but ok, my driving instructor lost a leg in a motorcycle accident when he was younger and while it's not like he can't live with himself with only one leg, he obviously wishes it had never happened as life was definitely easier with two legs

 

[crazyhomo]

This is why i think you and me won't come to an agreement....

that, and the fact you can't argue any valid points

 

[Monkey Butler]

Designer babies have nothing to do with detecting and aborting fetuses. Like the gay marriage debate, this is just people projecting an irrational fear onto what is simply a case of ensuring the birth of a healthy, physically and mentally average baby.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

I agree with you. I totally and completely agree with you about selecting out all genetic diseases especially those such as huntingtons chorea and cystic fibrosis. I was only giving you the other side of the argument. And, I was only talking about minor disabilities such as one arm. I know that I would rather be alive than not exists because I was going to have one arm. But if somehow this could be selected out and I still be born that would be great.

I didnt disagree that doctors make mistakes. Some are morons. I was wondering if she had something else thats all.

chances are it was the ultrasound screening or AFP; none of these methods- are 100% but you would confirms Downs with other tests like CVS or amniocentesis

you would do that with a full chomosome analysis over 3 weeks.. which can also pick up other syndromes..
it takes time and costs.. so high risk ppl are normally told to plan for the worse

its an art to figure wat all the results mean.. with AFP n quick amniocentesis the results back are normally based on an age statistical chart.. so until the full chromosomal analysisis done.. its kinda lik probability..

 

[Not-That-Bright]

ok.. here's an unborn child at 10 weeks... http://wprc.org/pictures/ultrasound.mov still classified as an embryo.. but definately living..

the following are the methods of early abortion

Vacuum Aspiration or Sharp Curettage (D&C): (6 to 16 wks) powerful suction tube inserted through the cervix and into the uterus. The fetal body parts and placenta are sucked into a jar, the unborn child often torn apart by the force of the suction. Possible complications include infection, cervical laceration and uterine perforation.

First Trimester Unborn Child Mifepristone: (5 to 7 wks) is also known as RU-486 or the "Abortion Pill." This chemical causes an abortion by interfering with the function of the placenta, starving the unborn child to death. Prostaglandins are then administered to expel the fetus. This method of abortion takes place over the span of several days; the average woman using it bleeds heavily for more than nine days, but some women have bled for over four weeks. Because mifepristone is a new method, long term health risks are not yet known.

Methotrexate: (5 to 9 wks) a methotrexate injection kills the unborn child by interfering with the growth process (cell division). Several days later, the woman is treated with prostaglandinsuppositories to expel the fetus; woman aborts at home. Requires three visits to a doctor to complete process.

The unborn child is very alive prior to the abortion procedure, and there is strong evidence that the unborn child can feel pain as early as twelve weeks. The abortion procedure is thought to be painful for the unborn child, as no anesthesia is administered to the fetus. In the case of a surgical abortion, anesthetic is usually administered to the pregnant woman.

 

[thejosiekiller]

thats terrible- but what concept does pain hold for an unborn child who has felt basically nothing before??? i just dont like the vacuum one...