The Abortion Debate... (4 Viewers)

[Generator]

Better than 16 year olds having kids.

The only way to stop (to a certain extent) 16 year olds having kids is to make sure that they understand what it is that they are doing... Something called sex ed, I believe. Raising the age of consent will achieve nothing.

 

[ur_inner_child]

kinda like smoking and drinking. Legal age is 18. Fourteen year olds still drink and smoke.

 

[neo o]

waterfowl do you masturbate? In all seriousness? Do you have sexual thoughts?

I know Christians who claim they don't, under the basis that they are commiting adultery (masturbating over someone's wife/future wife)

 

[glycerine]

haha, i was having sex before i was 16, i never gave a fuck about the laws. btw quite a few of the sexual partners i had before i turned 16 could be arrested for stat rape. it didn't stop me or them. raising the age of consent will do nothing but raise the amount of people who break the law by having sex

 

[Phanatical]

cos you know i think you are too immature to post on this forum. I dont think you can handle it.

I dont think you are mature enough to have sex andrew. You are not allowed to have sex.

Andrew i dont think you are mature enough to drive. I dont you should be allowed to drive until you are 21 (cos you know you become suddently mature when you turn 21 or get married)

Andrew i dont think you are mature enough to make any decisions for yourself (you may make the wrong one) until you are mature.

Andrew i dont think you are mature enough to drink coffee. You are not allowed to drink coffee until you are 21.

Andrew i dont think you are mature enough to do (insert anything you like)....etc etc

It is better to be cautious than callous. Coffee drinking doesn't have consequences (besides headaches and stuff). Having sex, and then having an abortion Does have consequences. Driving Also has consequences, which is why we have a licensing scheme. I say maybe we could go for our Dating license, and our Driving license - if you go for both on the same day, you get a discount.

Society DOES make a judgement on who is mature and who is not. We reach the age of majority at 18, because society feels that we are mature enough by this age. I don't, but society does. The age of consent should be raised to this level, because that is the age at which a person is deemed responsible enough to make a legally binding decision.

What makes engaging in procreation and having a kid any less of a responsibility than signing a legal contract? If you aren't responsible enough to sign a legal contract, why should society feel you Are responsible to engage in activity which is intended to create a new life?

 

[Phanatical]

Society makes judgement calls all the time. I just believe that the age of Consent should be in line with the age of Majority. If they ever decide to reduce the age of Majority, then the age of Consent should fall with it.

I just don't believe that a 16 year old is responsible enough. I believe that an 18 year old (with the right and responsibility to vote and the right and responsibility to represent themselves) is More responsible.

Personally, I don't think people should be considering procreating, or committing the act of procreation (even if the intended outcome is Not a child), unless they can care for the child. That's my personal belief, and that's something that I will observe myself. But while I don't believe that I can impose this on society, there MUST be a point where imposing moral values and freedom of choice meet.

That's why I support abortions (though I feel uncomfortable about it). That's also why I believe that society should encourage people (especially those who are not legally capable of signing a permission note to go on a school excursion, much less raise a child) not to put themselves in the situation where they have to decide to get an abortion.

 

[glycerine]

I had an abortion. It hasn't had consequences. I'M NOT DEPRESSED OVER IT, I NEVER WAS, AND I'M NOT SORRY I DID IT. STOP GENERALISING.

I have sex all the time, I masturbate twice a day and I do it for my own pure hedonism. I never intend to make babies. I intend to have orgasms. Much less responsibility than paying a mortage.

 

[Phanatical]

When was sex ever regarded by humans only for the purpose of procreation? MAny (i would say the majority) of people that have sex tonight do so without intent to make babies.

There are things all contraceptives (something the catholic church hasnt heard of)

Sure, and they might end up having a baby anyway. That's besides the point. It's like letting a person who's only 1.2 metres tall go on the Big ride at the carnival, even though the minimum safe height is 1.4 metres. They can go, but they'd fall off.

 

[ur_inner_child]

This is about sex before marriage at the moment, right?

In that case, being clearly over 16, I'm regarded as mature by law.

So technically, by chance if I land pregnant, the law had regarded me mature in the first place... so... is it that you don't think 16's old enough, Phanatical? You're cool and I love you, but I'd hate to be suddenly labelled immature.

 

[Phanatical]

This is about sex before marriage at the moment, right?

In that case, being clearly over 16, I'm regarded as mature by law.

So technically, by chance if I land pregnant, the law had regarded me mature in the first place... so... is it that you don't think 16's old enough, Phanatical? You're cool and I love you, but I'd hate to be suddenly labelled immature.

No, I just equate committing the act of procreation with signing a legal contract. As far as I'm concerned, if you're capable and allowed to create a child, then why shouldn't you also be able to apply for a mortgage? or rack up credit card debt? or run for Federal Parliament? Because at 16, people are quite frankly not capable of understanding the responsibilities that go with all these.

Hence why I support upping the age of consent to the age of majority. Alternatively, you could lower the age of majority to 16, but then you'd get all these kids in high school with huge credit card debts, mortgages, cars they can't possibly pay for, and even worse.

 

[glycerine]

Sure, and they might end up having a baby anyway. That's besides the point. It's like letting a person who's only 1.2 metres tall go on the Big ride at the carnival, even though the minimum safe height is 1.4 metres. They can go, but they'd fall off.

they're in danger of losing their lives. generally, people don't face that danger when having sex, unless they are uneducated about the need for vigilant contraception (something you are saying should be undermined in favour of communicating moralistic values instead). poor analogy

 

[ur_inner_child]

I agree with Phanatical to the point that the legal ages of everything are a bit weird. But most of them that concern our age-range goes by consensus and general maturity, doesn't it? Yeah, I know some fucked up 16 year olds that don't know what the fuck they're doing, but then again, there are others with the maturity to wisely sexually/romantically express themselves. And then again, that's based on my own made up criteria.

I wonder what made the government say "16" or "18" or "21", in what criteria...

 

[Phanatical]

they're in danger of losing their lives. generally, people don't face that danger when having sex, unless they are uneducated about the need for vigilant contraception (something you are saying should be undermined in favour of communicating moralistic values instead). poor analogy

Not so, I could argue that they ARE risking the life of the unborn child. Whether it is actually a person is a different question, but they shouldn't be placed in the situation where they have to decide that in the first place.

I am NOT saying don't educate people about contraception. I'm just saying that sex ed classes should be less like "fuck each other and have fun, because if you use these there are no consequences", and more like "the best way to avoid trouble is to abstain, so if you don't want to make any decisions you might regret later, abstain, but if you must, use such and such contraception, and consider such and such alternative ways of "being with each other"".

 

[Phanatical]

When the fuck did sex ed classes say that?

Im pretty sure sex ed was this is what you do if you choose to have sex. If you choose to have sex make sure you do this this and this.


Abstinence based educated is a failure. MAKING KIDS LIVE IN FEAR is not the best way to educated. Anyways im sure most kids are smart enough to realise that if you dont have sex you wont be at risk. Abstinence teaches itself.

I don't have as much faith in society's kids, than you do.

 

[glycerine]

Not so, I could argue that they ARE risking the life of the unborn child. Whether it is actually a person is a different question, but they shouldn't be placed in the situation where they have to decide that in the first place.

I am NOT saying don't educate people about contraception. I'm just saying that sex ed classes should be less like "fuck each other and have fun, because if you use these there are no consequences", and more like "the best way to avoid trouble is to abstain, so if you don't want to make any decisions you might regret later, abstain, but if you must, use such and such contraception, and consider such and such alternative ways of "being with each other"".

how many times do i have to say it? PEOPLE WILL HAVE SEX NO MATTER WHAT. it doesn't matter what you tell them. education is MUCH better, if you decrease the emphasis, all that will happen is increased teenage pregnancy and sti rates

 

[katie_tully]

Legal age is 16.
I had it at 15.
Sex is like abortion, you can't tell somebody what they can do with their own body. That being said, it is pretty wrong if 13 year olds go for it, especially considering they barely have pubic hair..
But we've all done pd health from 7-10, nobody can tell me they dont teach about contraception, considering our class put a condom on the banana for 4 years in a row.
It shouldnt be the teachers who do all the work either, the parents have to take responsibility for their children.

Either way, pregnancy happens. Condoms break, the pill isnt effective. I know a woman who had 6 kids, got her tubes tied and got pregnant a 7th time...Getting pregnant isnt about being irresponsible or imoral, so fuck off.

As for the person who had an abortion and is not sorry; So you shouldnt be.

 

[Phanatical]

I'm not saying they don't teach contraception. I think they most definitely should be, though I found the classes boring. What I AM saying is that they don't even offer abstinence as an alternative. They should, and parents (and society as a whole) shouldn't ignore it in the hope that kids will find it themselves.

Having sex is a right, but it's also a responsibility, and people at 15, 16 are too young to fully understand the responsibilities inherant in parenthood. That's why I believe tying the age of consent to the age of majority would be a good move - because it really enforces the idea of taking responsibility for your actions.

 

[katie_tully]

I don't think you are in the position to dictate as to whether a teenager at 15 or 16 has the mental capacity to take responsibility for their actions or not.
You do not know everybody on an individual basis, thus you cannot make that judgement.
I know some teenage parents who are much more capable than their supposed more mature, older counterparts.

If the girl decides to continue with the pregnancy, she obviously isnt taking the decision lightly. If the girl decides to have an abortion, she is also displaying maturity to be able to make such a difficult decision.

They do not advocate teenage sex in physical education, but they are aware that a large number of teenagers participate in sex, therefore they address it as a reality.

Sex is like an abortion. It relates to an individuals body. Nobody has the right to dictate what a person can and cannot do.

Schools have to educate about contraception, STD's, date rape etc. It should be the parents responsibility to talk with their teenager about the responsibility a child requires, correct decision making and the likes.

 

[Phanatical]

I don't think you are in the position to dictate as to whether a teenager at 15 or 16 has the mental capacity to take responsibility for their actions or not.
You do not know everybody on an individual basis, thus you cannot make that judgement.
I know some teenage parents who are much more capable than their supposed more mature, older counterparts.

If the girl decides to continue with the pregnancy, she obviously isnt taking the decision lightly. If the girl decides to have an abortion, she is also displaying maturity to be able to make such a difficult decision.

They do not advocate teenage sex in physical education, but they are aware that a large number of teenagers participate in sex, therefore they address it as a reality.

Sex is like an abortion. It relates to an individuals body. Nobody has the right to dictate what a person can and cannot do.

Schools have to educate about contraception, STD's, date rape etc. It should be the parents responsibility to talk with their teenager about the responsibility a child requires, correct decision making and the likes.

I'm in as much position as anybody else to state that a 15 or 16 year old does not have the mental maturity to take responsibility for their actions. If a 15 year old can't enter into a legal contract, then why should they be able to create life?

Whether or not a girl gets an abortion does not display maturity. It displays the fact that she made a mistake, and she now has to choose the lesser of two evils - raise the child, or kill the unborn foetus. Because somehow I don't think the 15 year old is looking to have children.

They most definitely advocate teenage sex in sex education. I went through the same classes everybody else did, and I was disgusted by the positive spin placed on this particular topic, actively saying that taking precautions is better than abstinence. They're so scared of making young people scared of sex (because that's hardly PC and they'll get in trouble), that they'll encourage them to do it "responsibly", forgetting that the best way to prevent pregnancy is by avoiding the whole situation at all.

Sex relates to an individual's body, yes. And society most definitely DOES have the right, and the RESPONSIBILITY to tell children not to go fucking each other. Abortion also relates to an individual's body, but it also relates to the body of the unborn child.

 

[katie_tully]

I'm in as much position as anybody else to state that a 15 or 16 year old does not have the mental maturity to take responsibility for their actions. If a 15 year old can't enter into a legal contract, then why should they be able to create life?

Whether or not a girl gets an abortion does not display maturity. It displays the fact that she made a mistake, and she now has to choose the lesser of two evils - raise the child, or kill the unborn foetus. Because somehow I don't think the 15 year old is looking to have children.

They most definitely advocate teenage sex in sex education. I went through the same classes everybody else did, and I was disgusted by the positive spin placed on this particular topic, actively saying that taking precautions is better than abstinence. They're so scared of making young people scared of sex (because that's hardly PC and they'll get in trouble), that they'll encourage them to do it "responsibly", forgetting that the best way to prevent pregnancy is by avoiding the whole situation at all.

Sex relates to an individual's body, yes. And society most definitely DOES have the right, and the RESPONSIBILITY to tell children not to go fucking each other. Abortion also relates to an individual's body, but it also relates to the body of the unborn child.

Wake up.
They promote safe sex rather than abstinence because they know no matter what they say, kids are going to have sex, so they would rather have sex smart kids rather than teenagers going for it without any precautions.
You don't seem to understand that no matter what precautions you take safe sex wise, there is a chance of something going wrong. The pill is only 97% effective, condoms break, women have become pregnant AFTER having their tubes tied. Not every person who gets pregnant is displaying stupid behaviour. A 26 year old who has unprotected sex with a random is just as stupid as a 15 year old who does, so why limit it to age?
Now, tell me. The highest rate of abortion is among women in their 30s. Are you saying that by getting pregnant and having an abortion, they are making a "mistake" by getting pregant, and choosing an lesser evil by having an abortion? Whats the difference at 16? Do you think it's any easier a decision?

My mother had me just after she turned 18, and she's doing fantastically. So are alot of teenage mothers I know. Personally, in the off chance I got pregnant, I wouldnt hesitate to have an abortion. It's not the same as sticking a babys head on a chopping block, so you all need to get over this murder thing.

A 12 year old is a kid. A 15/16 year old is reaching young adulthood. Fair enough 12 year olds shouldn't fuck each other, but 15/16? Do you think suddenly once they reach an age like 18 they're automatically more responsible? maybe you need to get out in the world.

Society has no right to dictate when a person can have sex. 16 is a reasonable age. We're not a bunch of fanatic catholics anymore incase you havent noticed. It is no longer a "sin" to have sex, unless you're a raging catholic, and if thats the case fuck off.