The Burkha, what do you think? Taliban or Qur'an? (2 Viewers)

[somechick]

It is not prevention. Its a band aid protection.

Prevention would be to change gender relations and to form social ideas of how to view women.

So they are making a protection to account for other people's behaviour. Im guessing that when Islam was first forming to create new morals rather then change the gender structure, is much easier just put a cloth over the problem. So they could keep a similiar gender structure, but create morals that would keep women safe from sexual ideas.

Contrary to your opinion, when islam was formed the gender structure was highly shaken. "new morals' were created which meant Women were given equal status, at a time when women we socially ranked lower than horses (true fact). That is why there was so much resistance on the coming of Islam as it changed the patriarchial societies. As for your claim that the hijab is not prevention, then why is there so much disdain when girls walk around with the boobs and asses hanging out? why are terms such as 'ho' and 'whore' still around? Point: it is prevention because islam asks you to dress modestly, not showing your ass in public just to get recognition that you are wanted or something.

This is a society where even though there have been successive resistances and uprisings against the suppression of women, we are still living in a patriarchy. Australia has never had a female PM, while the most patriarchal of all islamic nations, pakistan, has (Benazir Butto).
Changing gender relations, I completely agree with you here. However, the problem here lies in much deeper issues. Biological differences between male and females mean that an 'abolute' form of equality, in the western modes of enlightenment rhetoric, may never be achieved. 'Absolute' equality, is a utopia which is highly idealist. This problem lies traditional modes of power> who is given the power to establish such an equality. Is it the western forms of rationalism who should change these societies? Why cant the east say the same for women's oppression here? While the west has a whine about women's oppression under the Hijab, are they really in the right to assert their own ideologies on peoples who have been excluded as their counterparts for centuries?

 

[tempco]

Prevention would be to change gender relations and to form social ideas of how to view women.

and that's what islam does. gender relations/social ideas in islam are very different to today's social norms.

 

[Generator]

I meant your interpretation of islam, contemporary islamic cultures. and you would never wear a hijab because, obviously you're male, and anglo.

Can i ask why you did not reply to the rest of the post?

Ah, obviously I'm male, but in what way am I obviously anglo (and a christian, for that matter)? What is an 'anglo', by the way? I'd love to know.

As for the rest of your post:
- I didn't see much point in debating the point about the female temptresses given that I had already critiqued such gendered suggestions in general (for what it's worth, it's an idea that belongs in the past);
- I didn't know how you reached the conclusion that I may have been referring to a Christian interpretation/framework given that the discussion followed on from a point originally presented by sonic; and
- I thought that I dealt with your generalisations with the "ummm, rightio".

 

[Comrade nathan]

then why is there so much disdain when girls walk around with the boobs and asses hanging out? why are terms such as 'ho' and 'whore' still around? Point: it is prevention because islam asks you to dress modestly

In cultures like pre colonial Australia, Aboriginal women wore little over their breasts, and same with many cultures around the world. They were not considered hoes and whores by their people. Dressing modestly has nothing to do with preventing the ill treatment of women.

In these socities were full everyday clothing is not needed, there are still morals and unwritten laws for marriage and accepted gender relations. There is no anarchy, or uncontrolable sex.

 

[somechick]

In cultures like pre colonial Australia, Aboriginal women wore little over their breasts, and same with many cultures around the world. They were not considered hoes and whores by their people. Dressing modestly has nothing to do with preventing the ill treatment of women.

In these socities were full everyday clothing is not needed, there are still morals and unwritten laws for marriage and accepted gender relations. There is no anarchy, or uncontrolable sex.

Indeed there are many cultures out there where women dont wear clothing but the point is, the hand of modernity has not reached them.
But the interesting point is that, when the hand of modernity did reach the Aboriginal people, the most barbaric cases of rape happened because the 'civilised' man couldnt control himself. Women died and were oppressed because of those men. But you only know that because it was recorded in the histories. How do you know that there weren't any cases of rape prior to modernity?
Obviously you wouldn't know about oppression there because their culture has different methods of literature.
And now aboriginal people have been terrorised for the last 200 years, all because the hand of modernity reached them too abruptly.

 

[Rafy]

If islam claims to have such a great moral framework in place, why would women need to cover themselves in fear of abuse from men? Are the men of islamic societies something to fear despite their claims of having morals such as those quoted from the qu'ran earlier?

In many ways, the mere existence and need for the burkha is an admission that they cannot follow the very ideals they swear to uphold.

 

[somechick]

If islam claims to have such a great moral framework in place, why would women need to cover themselves in fear of abuse from men? Are the men of islamic societies something to fear despite their claims of having morals such as those quoted from the qu'ran earlier?

In many ways, the mere existence and need for the burkha is an admission that they cannot follow the very ideals they swear to uphold.

there are obvious differing biolgocial factors parting the sexes. one of them inlcudes the sexual vigour of males over females. females peak later, but my point is that, there are differences which separate the male over the female. The woman does not have to account for the males' actions, but if the hijab is a method of prevention. Your view of a hairy arab man beating a submissive wife is highly fallible.
But we are only focusing on the prevention of abuse. The hijab is also a method of the ceasure of judgment by a gaze. The gaze of power in judgement is in the western nations as well, but the hijab sees all women as the same, it doesnt matter if they are rich, or they are more prettier than another women. why do women here dress for other women? is it competition? when you wear the hijab you are free from the eye of power, of judgement. you dont see the woman as an object for your pleasure, you dont own them, they are creatures of their own judgement. the classic example, when a female walks past a construction site they yell "show us yer tits!" its an example of men's thinking they have power of the female. well they dont. its not only the male gaze but also the female gaze. for more information on the male gaze u should read some feminist film theory. This highlights some of the issues which the hijab addresses.

 

[sly fly]

Getting back to the original topic.......if it is their choice to wear the burqa then let them be. If not, then obviously it's wrong. However, I dont think it's very practical to wear the burqa, particularly in Western societies.

Note: The Quran clearly does not require women to wear the burqa. Thus there is no point in debating over that aspect coz there is nothing to debate about.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Well i ask this question.

What exactly is acheived by entirely covering a woman's head?

In some geographical locations, it serves a purpose. It's a cultural thing that shouldn't be intergrated into religion.

It's turned into a tool of lowering women and keeping them into a sub-human status which essentially keeps them under control.

 

[sly fly]

In some geographical locations, it serves a purpose. It's a cultural thing that shouldn't be intergrated into religion.

It's turned into a tool of lowering women and keeping them into a sub-human status which essentially keeps them under control.

The first part of what you said is correct. As for the second part, are you referring to the burqa or hijab?

 

[xeuyrawp]

The first part of what you said is correct. As for the second part, are you referring to the burqa or hijab?

Sorry, I seem lost. Can you clarify the difference? Doesn't a hijab refer to the scarf worn around the face, or the alternate kind of sack thing that has holes? The burqa refers to that and the long dress, right?

 

[sly fly]

Hijab refers to the dress requirements of Muslims. So it encompasses the scarf as well as loose, covered clothing (the moderate kind of clothing most Muslims wear). The burqa (the long dress covering the face) fits the requirements of hijab. However, it is not required of Muslim women to go to that extreme. So technically, the burqa is one way of wearing hijab. However, usually when people refer to the two terms, the scarf and loose clothing is referred to as hijab and is differentiated from the burqa. I hope that didn't confuse you lol.

 

[Sonic]

lolz, I stopped reading after the bit in bold, but I'm sure it's all that good. 10 comedy points (lol).

maybe that's the problem, if only people actually read the whole idea being presented.... anywayz good work some chick.. great examples ands quotes

 

[xeuyrawp]

Hijab refers to the dress requirements of Muslims. So it encompasses the scarf as well as loose, covered clothing (the moderate kind of clothing most Muslims wear). The burqa (the long dress covering the face) fits the requirements of hijab. However, it is not required of Muslim women to go to that extreme. So technically, the burqa is one way of wearing hijab. However, usually when people refer to the two terms, the scarf and loose clothing is referred to as hijab and is differentiated from the burqa. I hope that didn't confuse you lol.

No, you make perfect sense. Hijab could be translated as 'Muslim clothing' whereas burqa could be said to be the the item that covers the face.

I think it would be very hard to differentiate between hijab and just clothing that they would wear anyway. I mean, Muslims come from the desert, they'd wear long garments if they were of Christians. Those long clothes are a kind of cultural identity to Muslims. I'll add at this point that I have an Egyptian dishdasha/thobe that I made, which I've worn to an Egyptology conference. You can see why Egyptians wear them- the cover the whole body and stop you from getting sunburnt, but are loose and promote cooling.

The burqa, though, really seems to be used to degrade women. Why don't men wear them? Furthermore, if they're used by women as a piece to promote modesty, why do a lot of Muslims wear all these colourful ones? It makes no sense.

 

[somechick]

No, you make perfect sense. Hijab could be translated as 'Muslim clothing' whereas burqa could be said to be the the item that covers the face.

I think it would be very hard to differentiate between hijab and just clothing that they would wear anyway. I mean, Muslims come from the desert, they'd wear long garments if they were of Christians. Those long clothes are a kind of cultural identity to Muslims. I'll add at this point that I have an Egyptian dishdasha/thobe that I made, which I've worn to an Egyptology conference. You can see why Egyptians wear them- the cover the whole body and stop you from getting sunburnt, but are loose and promote cooling.

The burqa, though, really seems to be used to degrade women. Why don't men wear them? Furthermore, if they're used by women as a piece to promote modesty, why do a lot of Muslims wear all these colourful ones? It makes no sense.

The Burqa is an extreme form of Hijab. It was implemented by the Taliban during their reign in Afghanistan. The Taliban, may i add, had a very patriachal view of islam which they thought was 'correct'.

Here is a link so you can see what it looks like:

http://www.tribalelegance.net/black and white paktoon burqa.gif


The hijab, which you are reffering to as the colourful ones, is the headscarf and dress code (whose aim is to seek to stop the exploitation of the woman as an object).

 

[katie_tully]

Don't really care. So long as I don't happen to be on the same bus they decide to blow up.









I was being facetious.

 

[xeuyrawp]

No you dont get it. .

They have been around for a long time. When Flinders Petrie visited Ur in Iraq, they were being used, so don't say that they were a Taliban invention.

Edit: and yes, I asked a friend, I do get it. Hijab is the instructions on how to dress, burqa is that specific item of clothing.

Might I add that many Islamic women only expose their eyes while wearing just a normal scarf? They rap the scarf around their face so only their eyes show. It seems that the burqa is just a practical extension of that.

 

[sly fly]

No, you make perfect sense. Hijab could be translated as 'Muslim clothing' whereas burqa could be said to be the the item that covers the face.

Yes, that's right

I think it would be very hard to differentiate between hijab and just clothing that they would wear anyway. I mean, Muslims come from the desert, they'd wear long garments if they were of Christians. Those long clothes are a kind of cultural identity to Muslims. I'll add at this point that I have an Egyptian dishdasha/thobe that I made, which I've worn to an Egyptology conference. You can see why Egyptians wear them- the cover the whole body and stop you from getting sunburnt, but are loose and promote cooling.

Not all Muslims are Arab and not all Arabs are Muslim. Even some of the Muslims who are Arab don't come from the desert. I'm Muslim and I've never been to the desert in my life.

Those long clothes are a Middle Eastern cultural thing but because they fit the requirements of hijab, many Muslims choose to wear them.

The burqa, though, really seems to be used to degrade women. Why don't men wear them? Furthermore, if they're used by women as a piece to promote modesty, why do a lot of Muslims wear all these colourful ones? It makes no sense.

I dont see how colour has anything to do with modesty. I think it's more an expression of individuality than to attract attention and thus be immodest. Personally, I prefer to wear dark colours. However, I always wear a colourful scarf because in Western societies such as Aus, wearing all black seems to scare/intimidate people as well as give them the wrong impression of Islam.

Muslim women DO NOT have to wear the burqa. If they choose to wear it then I don't see how it is degrading them. Just as Muslim sheikhs (the male ones) wear the long loose clothes with the turban > they don't have to, but if they choose to then that isn't degrading them.

 

[sly fly]

They have been around for a long time. When Flinders Petrie visited Ur in Iraq, they were being used, so don't say that they were a Taliban invention.

Edit: and yes, I asked a friend, I do get it. Hijab is the instructions on how to dress, burqa is that specific item of clothing.

That's true

 

[tempco]

the burqa de-humanises it's wearer. ironically, the burqa turns the woman into a faceless object - which is exactly what the hijab isn't supposed to do.