The economics of hapiness (1 Viewer)

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http://www.smh.com.au/news/ross-gittins/why-all-this-living-it-up-gets-us-down/2006/02/21/1140284067606.html said:
Why all this living it up gets us down

Depression is rife in rich countries - more proof that money can't buy happiness writes Ross Gittins.

THE dominant view among our politicians, economists and business people is that society's central goal should be economic growth. Keep our material standard of living rising and the rest will look after itself.

Well, it seems to have worked for John Howard. According to a Saulwick poll this week, 81 per cent of people disapprove of his handling of environmental issues, 73 per cent disapprove in health and 67 per cent disapprove in education.

Half believe Australia has become a meaner society and more than half believe Howard is a divisive figure. But among those who identify the economy as the most important issue, 83 per cent approve of his performance.

And that seems enough to have 60 per cent approving of his overall performance as prime minister. And, of course, to secure his comfortable re-election on three occasions.

But if ever-rising living standards are the key to our contentment, there are just a few telltale signs that all may not be well. Why, now we're so much wealthier than we were, do we have more trouble, rather than less, with divorce, drugs, crime, depression and suicide?

Take depression. The evidence suggests that each new generation is more susceptible to clinical depression than the one before. About three-quarters of a million Australian adults experience depression during a year. One adult in five is expected to have a major depressive episode at some stage in life.

Professor Martin Seligman, of the University of Pennsylvania at Philadelphia, is one of the top psychologists in the US, and before he turned to studying positive psychology and happiness, he devoted a lot of his research to depression.

He's visiting Australia at present and I talked to him last week before consulting two of his books, Authentic Happiness and The Optimistic Child, both published by Random House Australia.

Seligman says America and all the rich countries are facing an "epidemic of depression". The question that interests me, however, is: why? What's causing this deterioration in the quality of our lives? Is it happening because of, or in spite of, our obsession with economic growth?

The professor says it's easier to be sure about what is not causing it than what is. It's not biological, since our genes and hormones haven't changed enough in 40 years to account for the increase in depression.

It's not ecological, since the Amish - who live in 18th-century circumstances 60-odd kilometres down the road from Seligman - have only one-10th the rate of depression as people in Philly. Yet they drink the same water, breathe the same air and provide a lot of the food the Philadelphians eat.

And it's certainly not being poor. It's a disease of the rich countries and, in any case, studies show black and Hispanic Americans have less depression than whites.

So what is it? Seligman offers his "four best guesses". First, the rise of individualism - what he calls "the big I and the small we".

"The more I believe that I am all that matters, and the more I believe that my goals, my success and my pleasures are extremely important, the more hurtful the blow when I fail," he says.

And life inevitably brings occasions of failure and helplessness.

In earlier times we had more comfortable spiritual furniture to sit in - belief in causes bigger than ourselves, be it God, nation, family or Duty - and this brought us consolation in times of adversity.

Second, the depredations of the self-esteem movement. This is the notion that the job of parents and teachers is to make children feel well about themselves. It started in California in the 1960s and has been hugely influential in rich countries, particularly in schools, where it's led to grade inflation and pollyanna report cards, and the abandonment of class streaming and IQ testing.

But its psychology is wrong-headed. Rather than encouraging kids to feel good we should be teaching them the skills to do well in their commerce with the world. Warranted, self-esteem comes as a by-product of doing well in our relations with other people, our exams or our sport.

So telling kids they're doing well when they're not involves "jiggling the meter". It leaves kids in the lurch when their failures can no longer be brushed aside. It leaves them deficient in the skills that fight depression, and ends up eroding their sense of worth.

Third, the rise of victimology. Increasingly, we're encouraged to blame our problems on someone else - our parents, the government, The System - rather than accepting responsibility and finding ways to overcome them.

This is a formula for what Seligman has pinpointed as "learned helplessness" (nothing I do matters) - a concept that helped make his name. "Notions of responsibility are importantly preventative," he says.

Fourth, the growth in "short cuts to happiness". We're encouraged to do all manner of things that bring instant pleasure but require almost no effort on our part: junk food, television, drugs, shopping, loveless sex, spectator sport, chocolate and more.

The trouble is that the pleasure they bring is fleeting and they soon leave us feeling empty. Nature built us in a way that we gain more lasting satisfaction from things we have to work for. A lot of the satisfaction comes from the work itself.

A life spent pursuing short cuts to happiness allows our strengths and virtues to wither, rather than develop, and sets us up for depression.

On the surface, those four reasons may seem to have little to do with the push for never-ending economic growth. Certainly, economists can't be blamed for the self-esteem movement or victimology.

But economic rationalism venerates and promotes individualism, working to dismantle communitarian arrangements as "inefficient". And much of the growth in the production of goods and services we strive for comes from ever-increasing sales of short cuts to happiness, not to mention all the lawyers making a buck by encouraging us to sue people who could be held liable for our misfortunes.

Rationalists are most disapproving of suggestions that the community would benefit from limiting the advertising and marketing of short cuts to happiness. That would inhibit growth.

So I don't think it unfair or irrelevant to acknowledge the social problems that accompany our much-trumpeted economic success.
Ross Gittens once again comes up with the most sensible thing youre likely to read in corporate media for a good while.
 

davin

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Take depression. The evidence suggests that each new generation is more susceptible to clinical depression than the one before. About three-quarters of a million Australian adults experience depression during a year. One adult in five is expected to have a major depressive episode at some stage in life.
theres also a greater attention to mental illness now than there was in the past. the hip new thing is that your kid needs to be on drugs for something
 

Rorix

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On the surface, those four reasons may seem to have little to do with the push for never-ending economic growth. Certainly, economists can't be blamed for the self-esteem movement or victimology.
I agree, Ross.

And much of the growth in the production of goods and services we strive for comes from ever-increasing sales of short cuts to happiness, not to mention all the lawyers making a buck by encouraging us to sue people who could be held liable for our misfortunes.
Oh really? That's news to me...I can tell why Ross Gittens is editor of the Herald economics section...only a brilliant economist could equate the promotion of loveless sex with an increase in demand for goods and services, or reframe the upholding of the rule of law which encourages economic growth and the encouragement of rigirous enforcement of contracts etc. as a BAD THING...

Not to mention the economic illogicality of arguing that things that give momentary happiness have a net overall negative effect from the utilitarian perspective.


Rationalists are most disapproving of suggestions that the community would benefit from limiting the advertising and marketing of short cuts to happiness. That would inhibit growth.
And finally, the two sentence part of an entire article which is designed to link paragraphs on paragraphs of seemingly useless information with Ross yet again criticising the economic management of the current Government. However, perhaps someone can explain it to me, because it doesn't seem to make any sense.

As I can recall, the premises of the argument are:
1. There are a number of factors, according to Professor X, which are contributing to increased depression, namely the I/we distinction, the self esteem movement, a culture of blame, and short cuts to happiness.
2. Short cuts to happiness and a blame culture are the primary drivers of economic growth <----- HIGHLY FUCKING QUESTIONABLE
3. The Howard government (or perhaps liberal economics as a whole) has encouraged economic growth
Thus, the Howard government/ liberalisation has encouraged a blame culture, encouraged shortcuts to happiness (via lack of action rather than any postive action, we are told to believe) etc. <---- DOES NOT FOLLOW
Thus, the Howard government/liberalisation is actually BAD.

So I don't think it unfair or irrelevant to acknowledge the social problems that accompany our much-trumpeted economic success.
I would be very impressed if anyone can present an article, quote, speech, essay, report, treaty, SMS, voice log of phone call, memo or ANY OTHER MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION where Ross Gittens has overall been POSITIVE about the unprecedented economic success of Australia under the Howard government.


Reading this article, anyone would think the Great Depression was the high point of happiness in the 20th century. :mad1:
 

walrusbear

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Rorix said:
And finally, the two sentence part of an entire article which is designed to link paragraphs on paragraphs of seemingly useless information with Ross yet again criticising the economic management of the current Government. However, perhaps someone can explain it to me, because it doesn't seem to make any sense.

As I can recall, the premises of the argument are:
1. There are a number of factors, according to Professor X, which are contributing to increased depression, namely the I/we distinction, the self esteem movement, a culture of blame, and short cuts to happiness.
2. Short cuts to happiness and a blame culture are the primary drivers of economic growth <----- HIGHLY FUCKING QUESTIONABLE
3. The Howard government (or perhaps liberal economics as a whole) has encouraged economic growth
Thus, the Howard government/ liberalisation has encouraged a blame culture, encouraged shortcuts to happiness (via lack of action rather than any postive action, we are told to believe) etc. <---- DOES NOT FOLLOW
Thus, the Howard government/liberalisation is actually BAD.
i think he was just using the Howard as a starting point for the article, its focus is larger. the end of the piece doesn't link the criticism back to the howard government.

Rorix said:
I would be very impressed if anyone can present an article, quote, speech, essay, report, treaty, SMS, voice log of phone call, memo or ANY OTHER MEDIUM OF COMMUNICATION where Ross Gittens has overall been POSITIVE about the unprecedented economic success of Australia under the Howard government.


Reading this article, anyone would think the Great Depression was the high point of happiness in the 20th century. :mad1:
are you just unhappy because he is looking the social problems associated with liberal economics and not worshipping it like yourself?

the article takes a focus that is severely lacking in the perspective of most
 

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walrusbear said:
i think he was just using the Howard as a starting point for the article, its focus is larger. the end of the piece doesn't link the criticism back to the howard government.
Fine, liberal economics then. The point still stands that his argument is very highly questionable.


are you just unhappy because he is looking the social problems associated with liberal economics and not worshipping it like yourself?
I'm unhappy because the argument is wrong, a point which I think you would concede given you've neglected to respond to any of my points and gone for the ad hominem.

SMH, this forum has really gone down the drain when only one person responds to my post and it's not even a response.

the article takes a focus that is severely lacking in the perspective of most
Perhaps the reason this focus is lacking in the perspective of most is not because Ross Gittens is the ultimate economist and the only one able to think of it?

Even if we concede that the core of the argument is true, that people are unhappier now than they were with lower living standards, the links to economc growth are so weak and there are so many other variable factors.

According to Ross, we are supposed to conclude that the poverty striken in Africa have happier lives than us.

We are supposed to conclude that the unemployed and homeless have better lives than those with homes and jobs.

These are the naturals conclusions of Ross' article.
 

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You should read the book Affluenza: The All-Consuming Epidemic. Really good read on this very idea: wealthy countries are stuck in a self-destructive psychological cycle of having too much but wanting even more.
 

Xayma

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Rorix said:
According to Ross, we are supposed to conclude that the poverty striken in Africa have happier lives than us.

We are supposed to conclude that the unemployed and homeless have better lives than those with homes and jobs.

These are the naturals conclusions of Ross' article.
I doubt they live happier lives that isn't what depression is about. Depression is more about a continued state of unhappiness which is detrimental to the functioning of that person. If Africa had the state of depression that we had it would result in alot more deaths, it might be that they, and other groups mention, don't have the luxury of time to dwell on problems. When one must continue to function or die then the desire to survive will probably kick in, however, in todays society you can easily be out of the loop for longs periods of time and survive.

I also love the comment on grade inflation. The Dangerous Myth of Grade Inflation
 
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davin

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i think it says something when doctors have so little to diagnose they start diagnosing people for stuff like being sad rather than....you knnow, malaria and tb and the like
 

walrusbear

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Rorix said:
I'm unhappy because the argument is wrong, a point which I think you would concede given you've neglected to respond to any of my points and gone for the ad hominem.

SMH, this forum has really gone down the drain when only one person responds to my post and it's not even a response.
your argument, as far as i can see, was to summarise the article and type things like 'HIGHLY FUCKING QUESTIONABLE'.

Rorix said:
Perhaps the reason this focus is lacking in the perspective of most is not because Ross Gittens is the ultimate economist and the only one able to think of it?

Even if we concede that the core of the argument is true, that people are unhappier now than they were with lower living standards, the links to economc growth are so weak and there are so many other variable factors.

According to Ross, we are supposed to conclude that the poverty striken in Africa have happier lives than us.

We are supposed to conclude that the unemployed and homeless have better lives than those with homes and jobs.

These are the naturals conclusions of Ross' article.
i'm not so sure the article was asserting as simple a conclusion as saying that liberal economics are bad. it provided some possible explanations for the correlation between liberal economics and high levels of depression in australia. i agree that the trends he links between the two are somewhat tenuous though.
you assume that to be critical of your liberal version of economics is to embrace poverty. you make overly simplistic conclusions from ross; putting words in his mouth. he never sets up the dichotomy you allude to, where poverty equals happiness. those conclusions aren't so natural.
 

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walrusbear said:
your argument, as far as i can see, was to summarise the article and type things like 'HIGHLY FUCKING QUESTIONABLE'.
Wow man...you guys are just too academic for me. I can't argue at your level man..that's all I can do..I'm just trying to impress you guys by pretending to know what I'm talking about...all I can do is summarize man, why do you have to be so mean to call me out like that..

your UAI must be like one million to see through me like that..thats the last time I ever try to compete with you..

you assume that to be critical of your liberal version of economics is to embrace poverty. you make overly simplistic conclusions from ross; putting words in his mouth. he never sets up the dichotomy you allude to, where poverty equals happiness. those conclusions aren't so natural.
Ross said:
And it's certainly not being poor. It's a disease of the rich countries and, in any case, studies show black and Hispanic Americans have less depression than whites.
 

walrusbear

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heh
i forgot how much of a fucking wanker you are rorix :p

though i'll eat my words on the last point :p
though your quote isn't taken from the conclusion. in the context of the article he was just pointing out how specific the correlation is (wealth). there is never a conclusion that they're better off.
 
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Rorix

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walrusbear said:
heh
i forgot how much of a fucking wanker you are rorix :p
I missed you too baby. But it's all love now. Can we have freaky makeup sex?


Roll over Moonlight, I want to share the bed with the bear!:bomb:
 
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Being sad and poor and starving is different from being depressed.

And I think there is a fairly strong case to say that capitalism has indirectly caused a social movement towards that quick fix to happiness - what with the coninual advertisements saying "buy this toothbrush/drink/shoe etc and you will be happy"

"Not to mention the economic illogicality of arguing that things that give momentary happiness have a net overall negative effect from the utilitarian perspective." - But it might, if said person continually seeks contentmnet in form of good or service, which aforementioned advertisements claimed provide happiness, only to be dissappointed.


And I think Ross was referring to the more extreme instances of suing people - like the woman who was fined for tapping somebody on the shoulder at a cinema.

And also John Howard's economic success has largely been due to the reforms of the Hawke/Keating government and the fact that the global economy has been strong. The only thing he has done is make sure debits=credits on the budget.\

*Waits for scary Rorix to yell at him :( *
 

Rorix

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Silver Persian said:
Being sad and poor and starving is different from being depressed.
Not very different, and if there is a substantial difference would you rather be sad poor and starving or depressed? Personally I'll take out Western society all the way.

But if you want to go to Africa then all respect to you!:)

And I think there is a fairly strong case to say that capitalism has indirectly caused a social movement towards that quick fix to happiness - what with the coninual advertisements saying "buy this toothbrush/drink/shoe etc and you will be happy"
Let's say you're right - examining the underlying principles of such a message "Buy X to make you happy"
The underlying assumption here is that you have surplus $ after living an acceptable lifestyle (i.e. having a roof over your head, food whenever you want, clean house, good nutrition etc..) and then you can afford to take a punt on Oral B toothbrush improving your ability to pick up, or whatever is advertisied.

So, assuming it's true, would you rather have a culture of buy this toothbrush to make you happy or buy this food to keep you alive?

"Not to mention the economic illogicality of arguing that things that give momentary happiness have a net overall negative effect from the utilitarian perspective." - But it might, if said person continually seeks contentmnet in form of good or service, which aforementioned advertisements claimed provide happiness, only to be dissappointed.
But the point is, economic agents are assumed to be rational. While one can accomidate for small irregularities due to irrational thinking, the system itself relies upon agents being utility-maximising. Thus arguing that there is systematic irregularity of people repeatedly purchasing products such that utility is not maximised (in fact utility is REDUCED) is completely economically illogical.

And I think Ross was referring to the more extreme instances of suing people - like the woman who was fined for tapping somebody on the shoulder at a cinema.
To be anal, from what I recall the woman was charged with assault which is not actually technically suing, but even if we assume that Ross means the increase of negligence, product liability suing etc. he is ignoring/neglecting to mention the very positive effect that an increase in legal awareness has in regards to investment and contracts, protecting property rights and upholding the rule of law etc. which are all very important factors in economic growth.

And also John Howard's economic success has largely been due to the reforms of the Hawke/Keating government and the fact that the global economy has been strong. The only thing he has done is make sure debits=credits on the budget.
Mm....yeah...the economy has grown for 14 years straight on the basis of a couple of Accord agreements and a couple tariff changes...or was IR reform, GST, user pays services etc. actually Keating ideas that he left on the desk by accident in 96?

*Waits for scary Rorix to yell at him :( *
:santa:
 
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-Yes, I'd rather be depressed and in Australia than starving in Botswana, :) but the article doesnt say that living standards in Australia are better than those in Africa. It just points to the higher rate of depression (which, you'd probably right in saying, is largely due to the fact that people in Africa dont have enough money to go to the doctors and be diagnosed as depressed.)

-Well, once again, yes there is less poverty in Australia than n Africa, and that is a good thing (at least for us), but that doesn;t negate any criticism of the country because *its better than Africa* Sure, wed probably do more for the world looking at global poverty than at Australian depression, but that doesn't mean the depression in our country isnt a problem that deserves some consideration.

-Economic theory assuming that economic agents are rational does not make it so. You could argue that individuals need to be more discerning regarding their purchase of product - but with the constant advertising trying to spread illogical messages, it becomes unfair to assume that individuals are going to purchase products on a purely utilitarian basis

-Im sure there are many good features of contract law - and I dont know enough about economics to argue about Howards record - I just added that lcomment in my last post to be cool :wave:

-
 

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Silver Persian said:
-Yes, I'd rather be depressed and in Australia than starving in Botswana, ....
Relevant points indeed, but the point I am trying to make is that Ross is ignoring the improvements in the standards of living created by economic growth, and even if his depression point is valid (which you rightly raise possible criticisms against) then it is a point of academic interest given that a strong GDP/capita is vastly superior to low GDP/capita as exhibited in the Australia/Africa comparison.


-Economic theory assuming that economic agents are rational does not make it so. You could argue that individuals need to be more discerning regarding their purchase of product - but with the constant advertising trying to spread illogical messages, it becomes unfair to assume that individuals are going to purchase products on a purely utilitarian basis
It indeed does not make it absolutely true, but for Ross to challenge one of the core foundations of economics requires a bit more explanation than just stating it as true, especially given that he is a 'leading' economist himself.

:wave: back
 

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