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The Iraq War (4 Viewers)

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turtleface

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Re: To be honest

Captain Gh3y said:
We have to ignore the self-loathing western intellectuals and media personalities who want to convince you that the US have killed half a million people in "another Vietnam" and that Saddam was generally a nice guy, and listen instead to the Iraqi bloggers.
I can't understand how people can base their views on Hussein from hearing the opinions of a few Shites, or seeing a few Shites celebrating on TV. Remember they are the sworn, traditional enemies of Hussein and his Sunni favourites.
 

Iron

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Re: To be honest

loquasagacious said:
How in the concievable future will globalisation/(neo-liberal institutionalism) overturn the entire system of inter-state relations and indeed the concept of the nation-state?
Firstly, this is a stupid thread. But I like stupid.

State sovereignty has obviously been eroded somewhat with the development of international law (commitment to fundamental human rights etc). There's not much to suggest that anyone but NK want isolation. States are increasingly inter-dependent on each other for all kinds of shit, not least trade and shit. Shit.

I for one welcome international law's slimy tentacles (less so my exam on it tomorrow). It's the octopus porn that states have to have. Our executive, for instance, can sign up to all sorts of major international obligations and leave petty democracy sprawled bloodied and bruised across clueless electorates.
 

Captain Gh3y

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Re: To be honest

I think my brain started oozing out my ears after I read this paragraph, it is honestly that much of a joke.

Your statement when pared down is: If we hadn't declared war on Japan not as many would have enlisted and we could wage war better. You didn't pause for one moment and consider that maybe they would have enlisted anyway if we had just started waging war without declaring it?????
That's not what I meant at all, I meant when we started waging war, ie. started fighting them. If we hadn't fought back at all there would have been less of them, like there would have been less terrorists. All I'm trying to say was the point that "there's more jihadis because we went to war with them" isn't really saying anything because in almost all wars the number of people you're fighting against increases once the fighting starts.

Unless you go to war with France, in which case the number of people fighting FOR you increases after a while.
 
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Ennaybur

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Re: To be honest

Captain Gh3y said:
I'll keep saying this; WHY did more Japanese enlist in the army and fight AFTER the USA and Australia declared war on them? Maybe we shouldn't have, that way there'd have been less to fight.

No, I don't mean the ABC or SBS, I mean the entire mainstream media here and also in the USA, Reuters, AP, AFP, CNN, etc. All of them. And for about the 100000th time on this forum, no, changing the subject by having a rant about the news on ch9/10/7/the daily telegraph is not a useful argument.

Though mind you, people like Fisk and Negus are pretty much blatantly jihadi supporters.
Oh come on. you talk like you're SO exasperated explaining the same simple things over and over to young children, try to undermine people's challenges by saying it's not 'useful' argument in comparing what you are setting up as a target for criticism (ie 'communist media') and yet look at your own brilliant argument - "people like Fisk and Negus are pretty much blatantly jihadi supporters."

Quite balanced and factual isn't it?
 

Captain Gh3y

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Re: To be honest

Try reading my first post, I wasn't calling them communist media or whatever, that's a different discussion. All I said was the entire mainstream media, public or private, don't report success stories in Iraq, ever. And they don't.
 

Collin

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Re: To be honest

I don't mind Howard's paradigm of pro-Americanism. Or should I say, atleast it's comprehensible as he's playing usual politics. He's a politician, so I can't blame him for that. Getting into the U.S's good books is certainly a worthwhile long-term investment.

Bush on the other hand..

Pilgrim said:
Was thinking the other day. I didnt agree with the Iraq war. Didnt agree with howard sending in aussies. Didnt agree with Afganistan.
Me neither.

And I still don't.

Pilgrim said:
If he nuked the fuck out of North Korea and Iran, I wouldnt really care.

Sounds fucked up
It does indeed.
 

Bendent

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Re: To be honest

frog12986 said:
The thing is that sooner or later that situation will occur.. Conflict is a natural progression, and occurs every day, in every society. Large scale conflict, whilst not as prevalent, is as inevitable whether we as a society like it or not; it is ingrained in the human psyche..

As the power of the US wanes, and nations in the Middle East and Asia prosper, many people will come to realise the relative importance of strengthening our support for such a nation while we can..

One of the biggest weaknesses that has developed, is society's ability to underestimate the nature of the human (or animal) form..Whilst we percieve ourselves to be 'rational' for preventing the occurrence of such situations in our own backyard, we cannot control the irrationality of others..
i think when US wanes and nations in middle east and asia prosper, we'll start support the prosperous ones.
 

Bendent

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Re: To be honest

Anti-Mathmite said:
But what are they fighting for exactly? It's like hitting their heads against a brick wall. They have been deployed to iraq for political gain... So that the leaders can make it look like they are cracking down on those "bad arabs".. Even if they have no goal to achieve.
i'm guessing oil, revenge, excuse for more military spending etc.
 

HotShot

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Re: To be honest

Captain Gh3y said:
Try reading my first post, I wasn't calling them communist media or whatever, that's a different discussion. All I said was the entire mainstream media, public or private, don't report success stories in Iraq, ever. And they don't.
they can only report 'sucess stories' if there are any. most of the sucess stories are journalist being kidnapped and then being released - basically there are no sucess stories in Iraq.

Even the capture of Saddam is hardly a sucess story. Even the sentencing of him to death is hardly sucess story.

A 'sucess story' to you is a failure to someone else.

Think of the sports news. If australia wins they report it, if they dont they forget about.

in media its not about reporting news, its not about tellin the truth, ITS about ratings and more importantly MONEY.
 

skip89

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Re: Iraq War

The americans helped bring democracy to a people under oppression. It wuold now be nice to see such passionate engagement in other countries under such rule, like burma.
 

gerhard

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i take a pragmatic approach.

whichever course of action that would have led to the least amount of deaths would have been better.

clearly this would have been not invading and leaving saddam there.
 

banco55

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Re: Iraq War

I guess the cynics who said the Iraqis were still living in medieval times and that democracy was well beyond them have been proved right. Remember all that bs about how the Iraq was the most educated, secular arab country? When in reality 1/4 to a 1/3 of the population was virtually illiterate, functioned within the tribal structure, did whatever the local imam told them to do and made Borat look enlightened. .
 
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ur_inner_child

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Re: To be honest

Rice about Beazley and withdrawing Aussie troops:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/youre-wrong-on-war/2006/11/17/1163266785991.html


You're wrong on war: Rice

Peter Hartcher Political Editor
November 18, 2006


THE US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, has criticised as irresponsible the policy of the Opposition Leader, Kim Beazley, to immediately withdraw Australian forces from Iraq.

Dr Rice said in an interview with the Herald that the US was unhappy with the lack of progress in Iraq and was taking "a fresh look", but it would not be making any precipitate withdrawal of troops.

"We do not believe that an immediate withdrawal from Iraq is going to do anything but cause chaos in Iraq; and I think that responsible voices are saying that from across the political spectrum, whether people favoured the war or didn't favour the war," she said when specifically asked about Labor's policy. "I think a precipitate withdrawal would be irresponsible. The Iraqis themselves recognise that."

She said the US's policy review would "recognise that, four years into the conflict, we do need to address problems in the way that this has evolved, and find solutions to what is a new phase with a new government that's very determined to have a lot of responsibility for its own affairs."

With the prospect of Australian and New Zealand intervention in Tonga, another South Pacific state racked by violence, Dr Rice described the spreading instability in the region as a wave.

She said yesterday the US greatly appreciated the Australian and New Zealand roles as regional stabilisers, but "I don't think this is a place where American forces are needed".

This seems to confirm a division of labour in the Australia-US alliance, with Washington happy for Canberra to take responsibility for the stability of the South Pacific.

But Dr Rice differed with her Australian counterpart, Alexander Downer, on the role of the 21-nation Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum in the world trading system. Mr Downer said on Thursday an APEC free trade agreement should be a "plan B" in the event that the global negotiations stalled.

But Dr Rice said that the APEC nations, which include Australia, should work towards their own free trade agreement parallel with global trade negotiations.

"I wouldn't even call it a fall-back. I think we ought to be pursuing both. I think to see the power of these APEC nations united economically would be quite something."

Dr Rice warned of a rising protectionist sentiment in the US. There was "an increasingly uphill American battle to stay on free trade". She said that it made it "ever more important" for the European Union and the major developing countries to show more flexibility in the ailing round of global negotiations.

"No one should take for granted that the US can continue its policies of very active free trade in an environment where there are questions of fairness of trade."

The US Secretary of State criticised the Kyoto Protocol as a way of dealing with global warming, even as negotiators in Kenya discussed a successor to the agreement for the years after 2012.

"Let's recognise the Kyoto limits haven't worked that well. People really ought to go back and do an audit of how the countries that signed up for Kyoto did - I think it'll be a surprising story. They're not going to make their targets."

She said the US was very active in dealing with the problem, and expressed enthusiasm for an Australian plan to promote climate change as an important item for next year's APEC summit in Sydney. "We are very interested in that."
 

ur_inner_child

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http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/ir...r-minister-says/2006/11/18/1163266815144.html

Iraq war 'big mistake', Blair minister says

November 18, 2006 - 9:58AM


One of Tony Blair's allies denounced the Iraq war as the British prime minister's "big mistake in foreign affairs", attacking his whole approach to international relations, British media said on Friday.

Industry minister Margaret Hodge was quoted by a north London local paper as having made the outspoken criticisms to guests at a private function last Friday, saying she had been troubled by Blair's attitude in foreign policy since 1998.

The Islington Gazette weekly said those doubts came from what she said was Blair's "moral imperialism" or the need to impose British values and ideas on foreign countries.

But she explained to one guest's question that she accepted Blair's assurances about the Iraq war because "he was our leader and I trusted him", the newspaper - whose editor was among those at the event - added.

Hodge, who is said to have told the meeting "I hope this isn't being reported", was unavailable for comment on Friday as the national media and opposition parties picked up on the report.

Britain's support for the US-led invasion of Iraq has been controversial from the start, prompting mass demonstrations and question marks over claims by London and Washington that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Those criticisms have mounted in the light of rising British fatalities and daily sectarian violence in Iraq that some commentators and political leaders have said constitutes a descent into civil war.

Blair recently scraped through a parliamentary vote calling for a full debate about British involvement in Iraq and discussion of any exit strategy, while families of some of the soldiers killed are demanding a public inquiry.

But cabinet and other senior ministers have by and large been united in their defence of the operation to rid Iraq of Saddam Hussein and bring about a democratically elected government.
 

turtleface

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Re: Iraq War

Captain Gh3y said:
Not for long, now that the Democrats are going to cut and run.
not more of that cut and run rhetoric

skip89 said:
The americans helped bring democracy to a people under oppression. It wuold now be nice to see such passionate engagement in other countries under such rule, like burma.
Yay...Iraqis get to vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who gives a rat about the Sunni/Shite skirmishs, breaches of geneva by the allied forces, a puppet government and show trials? Thousands of innocent people dying was all worth it because they get to vote!!! JOY JOY!!!

No seriously, when you impose your views and ideologies on a comparatively less developed society that was obviously not ready for 21st century western democratic views what did you expect? That everyone would embrace it with open arms? Of course you'll have differences in religion etc. inflaming tensions. The Iraqis were obviously not ready for democracy and imposing this on them as if it was it is the be all and end all was arrogant and short-sighted.

I compare it to the "stolen generation". Those kiddies were taken away because the advanced society thought it was the best thing to do for those kiddies. We all know what happened later...
 
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Re: Iraq War

skip89 said:
The americans helped bring democracy to a people under oppression. It wuold now be nice to see such passionate engagement in other countries under such rule, like burma.
Democracy? That's hilarious. The only thing the US has brought is more war, more death, more instability, more hatred. Bravo, Bush. It's depressing that you still cling to old propaganda while even those who oncre promulgated it have admitted it was a lie. The reason for the war has changed multiple times now, and neither WMD, Saddam, democracy, nor 'fight them there, rather than here' are valid explanations. You got sold a lie. Wake up.

I suppose you support invasion of China to liberate the Chinese, then?
 
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banco55

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littlewing69 said:
Democracy? That's hilarious. The only thing the US has brought is more war, more death, more instability, more hatred. Bravo, Bush. It's depressing that you still cling to old propaganda while even those who oncre promulgated it have admitted it was a lie. The reason for the war has changed multiple times now, and neither WMD, Saddam, democracy, nor 'fight them there, rather than here' are valid explanations. You got sold a lie. Wake up.

I suppose you support invasion of China to liberate the Chinese, then?
The americans should have recognised that the Arabs are a backward and barbaric people that need to be ruled with an iron fist.
 

banco55

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*hopeful* said:
^but who is america to rule them ?
I'm not saying America should rule them. I'm saying you can't have democracy in the Arab world because they are basically a backward, barbaric people who still believe in tribes and are still engaged in all sorts of inter-religious violence. The americans don't have anything to do with why the Arabs con't cope with democracy. Countries get the political systems that they deserve usually. It's no coincidence that there are no democracies and hardly any freedoms in the Arab world.
 
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