The Official Hamlet/R&G help thread (3 Viewers)

[ToO LaZy ^*]

i have a few quotes i don't quite understand...epp...

ok this one is in Hamlet, Act 2 Scene 2 line 376

"Hamlet: I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw"

and this one in from R&G, Act 2

"Player: And I know which way the wind is blowing.
Guil: Operating on two levels, are we?!..."

I don't quite fully understand the, but have a bit of an idea...
could someone plz explain these quotes..

and also, how does intertextuality play a role in Hamlet/R&G?...ie how do these quotes link in with the themes of both plays?

thx heaps

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

oh man...doesn't ANYONE do hamlet/R&G around here?..

 

[Sarah168]

i do Don't worry, you're not alone, but we havent started analysing RAGAD yet so Ill revive this [dead] thread in a week

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

ohk....
hooorray!

 

[olay]

Originally posted by ToO LaZy ^*
ok this one is in Hamlet, Act 2 Scene 2 line 376

"Hamlet: I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw"

and this one in from R&G, Act 2

"Player: And I know which way the wind is blowing.
Guil: Operating on two levels, are we?!..."

and also, how does intertextuality play a role in Hamlet/R&G?...ie how do these quotes link in with the themes of both plays?

thx heaps

umm the hamlet quote is actually in ln 347... anyway, do u have the cambridge versions of hamlet? the meaning of this quote is in the footnote...i'll post it here/explain it in my own way.

'i am but mad north north west' - he means
1. he is only a little away from the true north of sanity
2. he is not mad at all points of the compass, i.e. at all times.

'a hawk from a handsaw' - 'handsaw' has been thought to be 'hernshaw', a kind of heron, and 'hawk' has been thought to be a plasterer's tool. Its kinda saying though they may be mistaken for eachother, there is a clear cut distinction between his sanity and his supposed madness [note the huge difference between a hawk and a handsaw ].

i don't know which texts these quotes link to [in terms of intertextuality], but the second quote ties into the key theme of 'illusion v.s. reality'. in fact, both of them do.

have u got the page number for the ros n guil quote???

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

o.yep..let me check,,
pg 57..(in the 'baby blue' edition)

EDIT: and no i don't have the cambridge one

 

[olay]

hehe d/w the cambridge edition isn't that great...... did u understand my explanation? hold up i'm gonna grab rosencrantz!

sorry, i don't get the operating on 2 levels thing, but i know that the fact that the player knows 'which way the wind is blowing' indicates that he has some orientation, control and direction in the dislocated world of R+GAD... which relates to the existentialist/absurdist elements of the play. it can be said that the contrast between the player & Ros n Guil heightens how lost and vulnerable to greater forces of life the two are... but thats just my 2c

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

cool, that sounds right,.thx

 

[randhi]

alright guys, i'm really lost with this module. in the rubric is says u have to use the context and values of each text but howcome when u come to writing an essay u can write about death, freedom etc which are themes!!!
actually u see i was writing my essay and i hadn't finished lucky and i showed someone my essay and they said that i couldn't write about death or identity because its a theme??
so now i'm in this big ditch in my road to finishing my essay!

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

Originally posted by randhi
alright guys, i'm really lost with this module. in the rubric is says u have to use the context and values of each text but howcome when u come to writing an essay u can write about death, freedom etc which are themes!!!
actually u see i was writing my essay and i hadn't finished lucky and i showed someone my essay and they said that i couldn't write about death or identity because its a theme??
so now i'm in this big ditch in my road to finishing my essay!

you've really lost me...
what is a rubric?
is this some sort of assessment?
what are you actually asking??...

coz i have absolutely no clue what your on about...

 

[Lainee]

Originally posted by randhi
alright guys, i'm really lost with this module. in the rubric is says u have to use the context and values of each text but howcome when u come to writing an essay u can write about death, freedom etc which are themes!!!
actually u see i was writing my essay and i hadn't finished lucky and i showed someone my essay and they said that i couldn't write about death or identity because its a theme??
so now i'm in this big ditch in my road to finishing my essay!

Of course you can write about themes as long as you refer to the transformations made within them. Eg. how the concept of death is approached in both texts, or on a more sophisticated level - how dominant literary/religious/philosophical paradigms at the time affected the way death was approached in both texts. The structure of your essay would be much simpler to understand if you shape your understanding of changes in value within each theme. There are many other ways to shape an essay... but there's no reason you can't talk about themes.

 

[olay]

Originally posted by ToO LaZy ^*
you've really lost me...
what is a rubric?
is this some sort of assessment?
what are you actually asking??...

coz i have absolutely no clue what your on about...

rubric = dot points listing what they're looking for [sorta like outcomes to be assessed]. its up the top of pretty much every paper u get.

randhi, the context and values of the text are reflected in the themes chosen, as well as the way in which the themes are approached. e.g. both talk about the afterlife but in Hamlet, the Christian belief is dominant [reflecting values + beliefs of Elizabethans] whereas in R+GAD, the afterlife is uncertain, there is no reinforcement of a belief in christianity.... [reflecting values + beliefs of the 1960s, esp w/ the huge movement in absurdist theatre]. Good luck with ur essay!!

 

[randhi]

thanks a bunch you guys, u've saved me from taking my hair out through the stress.

 

[moemoe]

does anyone know how the play er is transformed in hamlet to R&G or what exactly the players purpose is???

 

[mraverage]

the players represented shakespeare- they are the onli people in control in their RGAD's world... comparatively, R&G, in RGAD are lost, representing the metaphysical state of the general populace after WW2...

man i thought they finished with Hamlet/RGAD after my year...

 

[shinkei]

Hey

I think to fully understand the R&G quote you need to read a few lines about it

Player: I should concentrate on not losing your heads
Guil: Do you speak from knowledge
Player: Precedent...And i know which way the wind is blowing
Guil: Operating on two levels are we?!

It seems to me that this is self-referentation (ie the text acknowledging its self as a text) The player makes reference to the fact he has "been here before" (ie he was here in Shakespeares original text) and the "precedent" he speaks of is hsi knowledge (as well as the audiences') about R&G's eventual fate

"I know which way the wind is blowing" refers to this again, as a term that that implies the Player knows what is going to happen. I figure the 2nd level is the fact that he does in fact know more about his direction than Ros and Guil do of theirs (remember that in previous pages R&G had been discussing where the wind was coming from in order to work out direction)

Not only does the player know what is going to happen (meaning one) but he also has greater knowledge of his direction on life (meaning two)

Well thats what i think...hope this helps

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

the player also acts as a 'narrator'...who guides the audience to understand what is happening and to link certain parts of hamlet to R&G

edit: the audience who have not yet seen hamlet can still understand R&G from the players' guidence

 

[+:: $i[Q]u3 ::+]

the player is really important when you consider the values of destiny and self-determinism in R&G. Ros and Guild have absolutely no idea what they are doing and they hate it... their world is a turmoil of confusing, random and seemingly unconnected incidences that represent the meaninglessness of life in the 60s. Because they're trying to find meaning out of this nothing, looking for a core purpose or direction, they end up looking like fools. In contrast, the Player understands that he is in a play... not jus the lil skits he does as part of his job, but he also knows he is in the play called ros&guild are dead. This is a trick called metatheatre; a play-within-a-play. And the player's acceptance of this makes him a much more assertive, less confused character.
Guild: Who decides? (ros mighta said this.. i cant remember now)
Player: Decides? It is written.
His awareness of his inability to control things makes him a much more sensible character. Which probably says something about Stoppard's world, a society searching for meaning in nothing.

 

[ToO LaZy ^*]

i don't understand this quote..

'guil:we cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, withnothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered'.....
page 52 of the baby blue book

any ideas anyone?

 

[kikujiro]

Originally posted by ToO LaZy ^*
i don't understand this quote..

'guil:we cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, withnothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered'.....
page 52 of the baby blue book

any ideas anyone?

ok, here's a guess.
you know how in R&G the two are constantly going around lost with no idea what to do?
i read somewhere that for knowledge, one must have a memory, but since ros and guil are two characters who are simply summoned into being for the purpose of the play, they have no clear memory of the past, only 'presumptions,' and thus no knowledge of what's really going on and stuff.
i think this is an existentialist idea, but i'm not too sure

However, once they're in the scenes appropriated from Hamlet, they know what they're doing, but that's cos they're meant to be for that part and i guess you could talk about the existentialist notion of them being defined by those around them so that sorta gives them a sense of being and knowing hat to do.

um, does that hlep at all?