To drop down or not? That is the question (2 Viewers)

[Sam14113]

The scaling for a subject is determined based on the performance of the cohort in english (or in the case of maths, a common scale is used, so it’s based on the common questions/subjects between courses).

Look with all due respect mate, you’re just flat out wrong about the common scale - see attached image (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 8).

Also, claiming that the scaling is “determined based on the performance of the cohort in English” isn’t 100% wrong, but highly misleading. Instead, each subject is scaled against every other subject so that a given subject cohort has the same average scaled mark (a) in that subject and (b) across all of their subjects (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 9). What is based on English is the maximum scaled mark, where the scale factor is determined such that the maximum possible 2-unit English mark is 50. However at the end of the day this doesn’t affect things as much, as really the mean and standard deviation are together a more accurate indication of distribution than top mark is.

Maybe you should try understand the system yourself before offering commentary.

 

[Sam14113]

Your comment that people will be less motivated to study maths standard because they will see ‘raw marks in practice’ and ‘aligned marks’ that will satisfy them is a fair one, and if you’ve seen lots of people fall into this trap, then I think you have a point. However, I don’t think it’s ‘indisputable’ at all — There is certainly an argument that your motivation isn’t determined by your complacency due to marks, but instead by how much effort you need to put in. Maybe if something’s harder, you’re more likely to procrastinate on it … just a thought.

Of course advanced has its scaling merits too — if you do really well in advanced it’s probably better than taking standard as getting 100% in any course is tough, and anything less than that can cost you. but what costs you more is getting a really bad mark in advanced. So there’s a balance. And at the end of the day, the system is designed to approximately not care which course you do and give you the same mark anyway (approximately being the key word)

 

[carrotsss]

Look with all due respect mate, you’re just flat out wrong about the common scale - see attached image (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 8).

Also, claiming that the scaling is “determined based on the performance of the cohort in English” isn’t 100% wrong, but highly misleading. Instead, each subject is scaled against every other subject so that a given subject cohort has the same average scaled mark (a) in that subject and (b) across all of their subjects (source: ATAR scaling report 2022 page 9). What is based on English is the maximum scaled mark, where the scale factor is determined such that the maximum possible 2-unit English mark is 50. However at the end of the day this doesn’t affect things as much, as really the mean and standard deviation are together a more accurate indication of distribution than top mark is.

Maybe you should try understand the system yourself before offering commentary.

Lmfao I have literally spent hours upon hours working with the scaling system to build my calculator, if you seriously think that I need to “try to understand the system myself” then I honestly don’t know what to tell you. The common scale part was my mistake (I had read that line in the past but my teacher said at some point that they’d implemented it) but the phrasing of scaling as being based on English was an intentional oversimplification of the scaling system (and is extremely far from “highly misleading”), because the point of my response wasn’t a detailed explanation of the scaling system - I was attempting to logically lay out the reason why Maths Standard is a poor decision ATAR-wise, and that point remains exactly the same nonetheless.

For the vast, vast majority of people an easier course of maths does result in less effort which is a negative thing for ATAR, and anecdotal experiences of procrastination don’t really change this - if someone doesn’t like maths, they will likely procrastinate either way. If someone is getting a “really, really bad mark in advanced” then dropping to standard will not save them from a purely ATAR perspective as one would be better off to maths counting at all - it’s not a matter of balance. I’m not denying that there are merits to Standard, but offering a higher ATAR is clearly not one of them barring a very small number of edge cases.

 

[year10studentpreparin]

yeah if its not a course requirement then drop. only reason i plan on keeping advanced is because its the absolute hardest math level im willing to do and most engineering courses require at least extension 1 lol

Ye true, I guess its easier to keep advance then do a bridging course IF YOU NEED IT FOR ENGINEERING.
OP is probs not gonna do engineering or something so he should just drop down to Standard and then work his hardest to get a band 5 or potentially band 6.
some courses claim assumed knowledge of maths advanced especially in stuff like architecture (design not architectual engineering) but in reality u can ez learn that maths that is used in it

 

[year10studentpreparin]

is math advanced even worth if you’re getting a band 4 raw mark?

no, because u can legit get a raw mark of 90+ in maths standard from studying like 1-2 hours a day for a week prior to the standard maths exam which yeah the scaling isnt gonna boost it so much but thats still a raw mark 90

 

[year10studentpreparin]

85??? But what if you get high marks in standard though like 90+

its a lot easier to get a band 6 in standard maths and then you can legit achieve pretty much any atar (assuming ur other marks are nice) except for maybe 98+ or some crap which nobody really needs except some niche people.
it would be easy to get a 90+ atar with standard maths its just if u want a 99+ atar with standard maths u probs have to get near perfect in everything
but in reality nobody really needs a 99 atar except med students who want the most prestigious uni etc

 

[year10studentpreparin]

if you want to do medicine at USYD or UNSW or something whcih requires 99+ atar well keep advanced, if u wanna do a maths heavy course just keep advanced, anything else just do standard maths and if it turns out that u need assumed knowledge of advanced just go to coursera and do the USYD calculus course which u can apply for free to and then learn in ur own time although this may not be sufficient for lets say engineering but for a lot of other stuff it will be really helpful or enough

 

[year10studentpreparin]

I don’t think people who do math standard are even aiming close to that atar anyways

most people doing advanced or a lot more other subjects dont even want a 99+ atar
most in standard maths just want a 80-90 atar at most which is ez considering it is more ez to band 6 standard maths

 

[year10studentpreparin]

Would an atar of like 88 - 93 be achievable doing standard, given that you do well in your other subjects

Definitely be achievable to get a 88-93 with standard. a lot more 97-98 atars of people who do standard as well its just virtually non existent at 99+ atar which only a handful of students really need

 

[sheppy123]

Definitely be achievable to get a 88-93 with standard. a lot more 97-98 atars of people who do standard as well its just virtually non existent at 99+ atar which only a handful of students really need

Thanks, that clears up a lot

 

[year10studentpreparin]

Thanks, that clears up a lot

NP bro.
U gonna do comp sci at unsw or...

 

[mmmmmmmmaaaaaaa]

probably co-op or law

you hold a different persona every time

 

[nsw..wollongong]

if only yall argued this well in ur discurisve yesterday smh

 

[mmmmmmmmaaaaaaa]

yeah i actually completed my HSC 20 years ago, idk why im on these forums

how's your analyst/ib at bb career going

 

[jimmysmith560]

Hi. So recently in my school we did a yr 11 bridging course where we got to try out our subjects for yr 11 to see how we find them. Then we gave unassessed short exams for them to test our knoweldge. Im currently doing advanced maths but I achieved a 50% for the functions and logs topic that our test was assessing. My teachers recommeded me to drop down to standard but ive been searching online and stuff about dropping down sounds so negative. Like i read that you cant achieve an ATAR of 99.95 which i wouldnt want to get robbed of not getting a chance to try for it. I also heard you cant get a 99 atar even which I hoped to atleast achieve. I also heard it scales really low. Im just confused as I enjoy adv maths and put in the effort but im not sure why im unable to do well. Like even when I gave that tested i estimated a 70%. I would really like some advice on this, and if anyone has done their hsc with standard math lemme know if these things im reading online are true or not

my subjects currently:
eng adv
legal
eco
chem
bio
adv math

It is true that Mathematics Standard is a lower-scaling subject compared to Mathematics Advanced. However, a 99+ ATAR can be achieved with Mathematics Standard and this has happened in previous cohorts. For example, the highest ATAR achieved by a student who took Mathematics Standard in 2022 was 99.80. Even a 99.95 ATAR can be achieved with Mathematics Standard, and this has happened in 2021. This brings us to whether you should drop to Mathematics Standard, in which case each subject has different advantages and disadvantages.

Mathematics Advanced:

This subject inherently provides you with greater mathematical knowledge compared to Mathematics Standard and is treated as a prerequisite (in the case of USyd) or assumed knowledge for a range of universities/degrees. You enjoy Mathematics Advanced, which would indicate that you are willing to do your utmost to improve in this subject. The good thing is that you have plenty of time to improve your performance. However, you should consider whether significant improvement is possible. If you keep 12 units in year 12, and if Mathematics Advanced ends up being your lowest-performing subject, it would not count towards your ATAR anyway, allowing you to still work towards your ATAR goal and meet any relevant prerequisite/assumed knowledge.

Mathematics Standard:

While this subject does not provide you with the same level of mathematical knowledge compared to Mathematics Advanced, it is generally considered easier. This means that, provided you regularly study and address areas of improvement, you can definitely perform favourably in this subject and consistent with your ATAR goal. However, Mathematics Standard does not meet relevant prerequisites/assumed knowledge for a range of universities/degrees, which could affect your ability to either receive an offer for a particular course, or perform well in the course if you do receive an offer. Of course, there are post-HSC options that you can use to address this, such as self-studying Mathematics Advanced content (if treated as assumed knowledge) or completing a special short course (if treated as a prerequisite, as is the case of USyd).


I hope this helps!

 

[cossine]

Hi. So recently in my school we did a yr 11 bridging course where we got to try out our subjects for yr 11 to see how we find them. Then we gave unassessed short exams for them to test our knoweldge. Im currently doing advanced maths but I achieved a 50% for the functions and logs topic that our test was assessing. My teachers recommeded me to drop down to standard but ive been searching online and stuff about dropping down sounds so negative. Like i read that you cant achieve an ATAR of 99.95 which i wouldnt want to get robbed of not getting a chance to try for it. I also heard you cant get a 99 atar even which I hoped to atleast achieve. I also heard it scales really low. Im just confused as I enjoy adv maths and put in the effort but im not sure why im unable to do well. Like even when I gave that tested i estimated a 70%. I would really like some advice on this, and if anyone has done their hsc with standard math lemme know if these things im reading online are true or not

my subjects currently:
eng adv
legal
eco
chem
bio
adv math

Do not drop down.

The issue could be the way you are approaching your studies.

Try reading Advanced Mathematics by Terry Lee. Solutions are inside the textbook. If you are getting 50% on the test the issue is you have not learned/understood the content. You should start noting down what are the theorem, definition or axioms you need to know.

Practise a couple of past papers from thsc.

 

[jimmysmith560]

Hey thankyou for the advice and comparison. I really appreciate it!
In terms of the example you gave me for the ATAR results do you mind sharing where i can access these type of stats? It would be helpful to understand the trends of scaling etc : )

I also wanted to clear something up. If a subject is marked as 'assumed knowledge' for a course and you dont do that subject would you not recieve an offer even if you have met the atar requirements? because from my understanding i thought that 'prerequisites subjects'were the only compulsory ones.
Thankyou again!

No worries! Every year, UAC publishes a report on the scaling of that year's HSC cohort. These contain information regarding the maximum ATAR achieved by students who took specific subjects. You can access the 2021 and 2022 reports using the following links:

https://www.uac.edu.au/assets/documents/scaling-reports/scaling-report-2021-nsw-hsc.pdf

https://www.uac.edu.au/assets/documents/scaling-reports/scaling-report-2022-nsw-hsc.pdf

No, assumed knowledge means that you are assumed to have studied a particular subject (and therefore have relevant knowledge at a particular level) if you wish to study a particular degree. You can still receive an offer for a degree, even if you do not have the relevant assumed knowledge. However, you may struggle with your university studies.

On the other hand, a prerequisite must be met (in addition to the ATAR/selection rank requirement) if you wish to receive an offer for a particular degree. If you do not meet a prerequisite, you will not be made an offer for the degree.

 

[cossine]

Thanks for this. My main concern was that I was already doing all of this, but still had trouble understanding the concepts. would you recommend anything to improve that?

math stackexchange.
youtube videos
Ask math questions here on boredofstudies.

 

[its_ace21]

math standard too easy

 

[C_master]

math standard too easy

then u shouldve done advanced