UNSW vs UWS Law (4 Viewers)

[flamearrows]

Objective metrics? Wow you're going to be a great lawyer there.

Being someone who has had more involvement with a top tier firm than just a couple of months over summer I can tell you that most lawyers couldn't give a stuff about what Chambers list, the fact that you have to apply for it and that not all companies answer the survey makes it laughable that people take it as gospel.

I'm not going to be a lawyer.

My point was that the guide is one of the only ways to measure quality. I can't think of any other ways that are publically accessible - can you?

 

[mpack]

In response to dste6

Perhaps my post was not as clear as it could have been.

I only raised boutique firms as an example where industry leaders could come from, not where they started their careers at. For instance Chang, Pistilli and Simmons are highly regarded in commercial DR and M&A. They make up a talented boutique firm, but they all came from Freehills and AAR. I do not know of any people that started at boutique firms who are in the lists.

The major mid-tiers I refer to are not small by any measure. I know that the usual grouping of top-tier is the major 4 or 6, depending on who you talk to, but I personally believe firms such as Gilber + Tobin and Corrs, even Henry Davis York, are top-tier in quality even if technically labelled major mid-tier. Selection into these mid-tiers is also quite cut-throat and clients just as large.

Therefore, if you ask where the most renowned and publically acclaimed lawyers (be it by reference to Chambers, Legal 500, Best Lawyers, ALB, Lawyers Weekly - Trust me all the same names appear in all of the legal guides) then I would say top-tier (this includes those firms I have listed above that I believe belong to the top-tier group).

I understand that you want it to be true so much that people from lower rated firms can become beacons of light in the legal world just on a little hope. It just isn't true.

I know plenty of good partners at lower mid-tier firms that do great work for their clients - I even hope to be one some day. But none of them have been published in the prestigous guides as industry leaders. It does not matter to them, nor their clients, nor their pay. They even get to work better hours.

In short, get over yourself. If you make one of the top-tier firms then you have a shot at getting your name in lights, at a cost of course. If you don't then be happy and satisfied, as odds are you are not going to be the most renowned lawyer. Or third option is if you are so unsatisfied, work your way up into top tier (this can be a lengthy process) and get that title you are so desparate to get. there are more things in life than being on a list

 

[dste6]

Mpack, if you paid much attention around here, you'd note from my history that I don't particularly have much interest in top-tier firms nor rising through their ranks, or having my name in lights for that matter. My M.O. has always been to try and counter the narrow ideas that people have of what a career in law should be, and explore more interesting options. It seems that so many people are in love with Biglaw, including yourself, to realize that good lawyers and great legal minds exist outside of it.

But I guess your too busy modifying definitions of the terms of the topic ie 'top-tier' to fit your own shabby arguement and make it work somehow. If you didn't get it right the first time around, its best to just drop it.

I'm guessing that you've never been involved in debating, or were never really good at it. Here's a tip, in an arguement stick to the accepted definition and don't attempt to rewrite the dictionary...

Anyway, I reject most of your line of arguement and think that you should check your attack against me for signs of hypocrisy. However, I do appreciate some of the information in there about various boutiques and publications.

As Jon Stewart would say - 'Keep fuckin' that chicken'

 

[mpack]

I'm guessing that you've never been involved in debating, or were never really good at it. Here's a tip, in an arguement stick to the accepted definition and don't attempt to rewrite the dictionary...

This is a clear indicator of both your ignorance and your lack of experience. It is a hot topic of legal debate at the moment about what lines legal firms should be defined under. With Deacon soon to be merged with Norton Rose and DLA Phillips Fox soon to be solely DLA piper and even another big name merger in the works. What defines top tier? Where is this magical definition you talk of? How about you engage in some independent thought you mindless drone.

Just because you sat next to someone in Foundations of Law that had a pen from what they claimed to be a top tier firm certainly does not make you an expert on the topic. Listen child, how about you do some research before you infect others with your insolence. Read some articles written by Danny Gilbert, he often comments about what goes into making a firm truly top tier. But let me guess you'll probably claim that you know more than him, as he has only built one of the fastest growing most successful commercial law firms in Australia, compared with your below average attempts at a couple of law subjects.

You should not even bother applying to the mid tier and boutique firms that I have mentioned as they would not take an idiot like you. They have class, something you completely lack. Isn't it funny that you are willing to use my knowledge and experience such as the names of boutique law firms, of which I have hundreds more - but out of principle will only give to those worthy of such help. You are a leech.

Your last line is one of the most childish things I have read here, I wouldn't be surprised if you never won a debate with arguments like that. As a matter of fact don't even bother pursuing law, as it is a field for those with integrity, which is something you will never possess. You offer nothing. No valued insight, no industry experience, nothing. You are just some stupid reject that struggles to tie their shoe laces in the morning and so is angry at those that strive for more and those that actually have a brain.

Finally, if you are going to constantly criticise me about my argument, then spell it right. You have written it 4 times and each time have spelt it wrong. There is no second 'e' in argument. Perhaps you should stop talking about things you clearly have no knowledge about and focus on your spelling.

 

[dste6]

hit a nerve I guess..

 

[bored at work]

Isn't it funny that you are willing to use my knowledge and experience such as the names of boutique law firms, of which I have hundreds more - but out of principle will only give to those worthy of such help. You are a leech.

Lol, such exclusive knowledge.

 

[mpack]

Lol, such exclusive knowledge.

Wow, such insight!

I can tell you are offering alot for the junior law students on this site with your sarcastic comments. Come on big man, let's hear you divulge something useful for a change.

 

[Frigid]

I'd like to point out that, as of this year, Deacons Australia has become Norton Rosehttp://www.nortonrose.com/locations/australia/default24640.aspx. I walked past their rebadged offices the other day. Had to do a double-take.

Btw, this thread is getting off a bit stale and off-topic.

Instead of this dick-waving, can we focus on what the pros of attending a local university like UWS, compared to a city university like UNSW? What are law UWS classes like, anyway?

 

[bored at work]

Wow, such insight!

I can tell you are offering alot for the junior law students on this site with your sarcastic comments. Come on big man, let's hear you divulge something useful for a change.

Sure.
Justitia is a boutique employment law firm that I would be looking at if I was interested in that area.
Both the partners are from Blakes so the clients are of a top tier level, but the firm has an emphasis on the employee.
They're expanding rapidly, now with offices in Sydney and Melbourne, and may be looking to take on Grads. They also employ students as paralegals/reasearch assistants (you'll pretty much be acting as a junior solicitor so it's great experience).
www.justitia.com.au

I would find this useful, a list of firm names I would not.

 

[Bananaberry]

A person from my school says that their cousin did law at UWS and they are now trademen..

i wouldnt touch that place

My finance's a tradesman - earns $3,500 a week

 

[melsc]

I'd like to point out that, as of this year, Deacons Australia has become Norton Rosehttp://www.nortonrose.com/locations/australia/default24640.aspx. I walked past their rebadged offices the other day. Had to do a double-take.

Btw, this thread is getting off a bit stale and off-topic.

Instead of this dick-waving, can we focus on what the pros of attending a local university like UWS, compared to a city university like UNSW? What are law UWS classes like, anyway?

This would be much more productive.

When I was there there were 'seminars' rather than lecture/tute format. A seminar was a slightly bigger tute but I prefered that to lecture tute.

 

[flamearrows]

My finance's a tradesman - earns $3,500 a week

Freud called. He wants a word.

 

[Bananaberry]

It's quite common for tradies to earn that much, considering he does do 12 hours a day 6pm-6am, 5-6 days a week for for a large engineering company.


EDIT - I did mean fiance - stupid iphone!

 

[sean1990]

Some very good arguements raised.

I agree with UWS certainly being on the rise. for a law school which is (14 years old ~ told at orientation) being compared to USYD being over 100 years old its quite hard to talk about the prestige of each uni.

The bottom line is, the education (FOR LAW) is very similar across all NSW universities. UWS has some fantastic teachers and I feel very happy to have attended UWS.

BUT~~~~~

Business at UWS is very poor. terrible classes, terrible units, terrible classmates who are absolutely hopeless, group assignments where nobody participates, a terrible communication between teachers and students and basically a "We don't give a f&*K about U so long as your paying attitude is the reason I have left for Macquarie.


Now, I am not trying to degrade UWS when i say this~ a prestige uni is a higher percieved uni to employees. It is a fact of nature, no matter how good UWS is it will never be comparible to Sydney, because its in the WEST.

Look at the area, its western sydney, its percieved by Eastern suburbs people as 2nd rate to their own side~~ employers for the most part are the same.

UWS will take a very long time (if ever) to reach a similar prestige level as USYD, UNSW or even macq. The reason I believe is that the higher percieved degrees = more demand for the course driving the UAI/ATAR grades up, which basically means the students with higher marks will tend to be at USYD due to the very hard barriers to get in.

Employers know that USYD and UNSW are hard universities to get into, and to get into them (let alone do well in them) basically means you are the best of the best.

Now, im not saying being at UWS wouldn't put u in the top tier firms, but as was said earlier, you would have a better chance if u were the best crop~ in the most sought after course at USYD.


As has been mentioned it comes down to marks whilst at UNI, but my reason for leaving was because Business was terrible at UWS, and I honestly believe Macquarie is seen in an employee's eyes as far better than UWS (even if its not as good as USYD and UNSW).


I am sad to leave UWS, but if i was studying law in 20 years from now, I'd probably choose UWS because it has alot going for it as has been mentioned and it is really committed to making its law departments as good as USYD and UNSW....


the same cannot be said for business im afraid.

 

[bryandawn]

I'm sad to leave UWS law, but the safety issue is a big concern for me. I study at Campbelltown, and in 2009, there were a number of assaults between the campus and the train station, so much so that the uni started running shuttle buses between the campus and Campbelltown station.
Also since I'm doing Arts as my other degree, UWS doesn't allow many majors of Arts to be combined with Law, MQ has many more combos available.
Then, the travelling between 2 campuses, means if I have classes at Campbelltown, it will be very difficult for me to choose to have classes at Bankstown on the same day.
UWS law school has more prestigious staffing than MQ, like Brian Sully and Michael Kirby; and the proportion of USyd and UNSW graduates among the academics seems higher than that of MQ.

 

[rajputsingh]

Look at the area, its western sydney, its percieved by Eastern suburbs people as 2nd rate to their own side~~ employers for the most part are the same.

perceived?

 

[red-butterfly]

my friend just missed out on unsw combined law

the atar for it this year is 99.55

he got 99.5

missed out by 0.05

 

[dude01]

Transfer from uws law to macquarie law must be pretty easy... apart from all the above posters who did it, I personally know 3 people who have transferred as well and they had crappy GPA's (below 5) and uai's in the 70's and 80's.

I'm a final year uws law student so I'm over this prestige argument. All I can say is work hard to get good marks and get some legal experience while studying! From my experience, the uws law school is pretty good. If you can't get into usyd or unsw and want to be a lawyer then uws is a great alternative and nothing to be ashamed about.

 

[Bananaberry]

Here are some copies of newsletters I get from UWS, there are a few stories of UWS law graduates.

http://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/110096/ALU1275_GradLife_8.pdf
http://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/75565/GradLife.pdf

I think the whole purpose of UWS with their law school (and their med school) is to target students who want to work close to home - i.e greater western Syd. I think they try and target their programs to cater for this. I dont think their main aim is for students to work at top tier law firms (generally speaking). But hey, there is more crime in GWS = more work for law firms in the west.

 

[rajputsingh]

But hey, there is more crime in GWS = more work for law firms in the west.

That doesn't really help to promote the law program at UWS nevertheless promte the greater western sydney area.