UOW B laws - Reputation ? (2 Viewers)

[blakegman]

thanks to both of you, that was rather helpful. although your sig hfis has me questioning whether i am up to the course hahah, im no law expert, but that is just stupid

 

[Coadem.06]

A degree is a degree no matter the institution that gave it to you. Any employer who prioritises a University name before your academic record and personal attributes, quite frankly, isn't worth your while.

I am a first year Law student at UOW and can promise that the degree is just as rigorous, challenging and (if you put in the effort) just as rewarding than if you were to pursue legal studies anywhere else.

Using the UAI is a poor indicator of reputation. Because any given university's UAI represents student demand and the popularity of that course two things must be considered:

1) In part, some people interpret high UAI cut offs as indicative of a university's quality/reputation

- UOW is not a sandstone institution, where other universities can ride on their historical integrity our academics realise that UOW can only recruit students based on quality curriculum, teaching and graduate employment schemes. This approach focuses on delivering services to the student - that is what any kid should look for when considering their university options.

2) Because UAI is determined by student DEMAND greater numbers available to students will decrease UAI, eg UWS may have an intake three times more than Usyd so the UAI cut off for Usyd will logically be higher.

- UOW only accepts commonwealth supported places for every degree in every faculty. Not catering for Domestic fee paying students means a greater ability to raise student intake and therefore lower the UAI cut off.

- Lastly, a lesser UAI makes a perceptively high brow degree such as Law accessible to students who may discover that they are interested and passionate about something they never considered within their breadth . It gives some the option of bringing a different perspective to another degree they are undertaking and expands career opportunities in later life.

We have a beautiful campus in Wollongong and a newly furbished library. I personally am thankful for mydecision to study here for the next four and a half years. Your choice of university should be well considered and researched because dedicating the next couple of years to wherever may mean the difference between loving or hating tertiary education. Every university is different, each has its own vices and virtues - there is one out there for you. It may not be UOW that takes your fancy but bear in mind reputation is merely a subjective characteristic that extends beyond any statistical or ranked analysis. Because many people fail to see this i think they overlook a gem of an institution and an awesome chance to truly enjoy their studies.

Hope this helps

 

[RogueAcademic]

A degree is a degree no matter the institution that gave it to you. Any employer who prioritises a University name before your academic record and personal attributes, quite frankly, isn't worth your while.

I have no idea of the standing of UoW and I'm not speaking in context of UoW here. Broadly speaking the reality is a bit different from your comment above though. For example if you look at the state of affairs in the US, the mere fact that you are a graduate of an ivy league law school (ie. Yale, Harvard, Columbia etc) will get you first consideration at all the top tier law firms. A lot of top tier law firms will set up designated recruitment sessions at those ivy league universities only and no where else, because those are the only places they will recruit from. That should be an indication of how things are in the real world.

It is also a reflection on how it is in Australia, although I think it's not as competitive as in the US - I have heard of top tier Australian law firms that will only recruit from certain top Australian universities and no other but of course feel free to argue on that point as it is anecdotal, I don't have specific statistical evidence with which to back it up. All I can say is that I am frequently told about these narrow recruitment practices off-the-record by long term lawyers and legal academics in the field. The only recruitment stats I have is here but keep in mind it's just a crude survey, although one conducted by a recognised legal industry news publication.

 

[Raiks]

I have heard of top tier Australian law firms that will only recruit from certain top Australian universities and no other but of course feel free to argue on that point as it is anecdotal, I don't have specific statistical evidence with which to back it up. All I can say is that I am frequently told about these narrow recruitment practices off-the-record by long term lawyers and legal academics in the field. The only recruitment stats I have is here but keep in mind it's just a crude survey, although one conducted by a recognised legal industry news publication.

Umm... well considering your invitation, I'd point out that it's rubbish. Australian law firms are actually quite egilitarian when it comes to recruitment. Attending the national ALSA conference in Canberra this year, the amount of people who were accepted into top tier law firms was spread right across the insitutions. UTS, UWS, UOW, Bond, Melb, Flinders etc... it's far from how it is in America, although given the recent moves by Melb. Uni to introduce the Melbourne Model, then this could change sooner rather than later.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Umm... well considering your invitation, I'd point out that it's rubbish. Australian law firms are actually quite egilitarian when it comes to recruitment. Attending the national ALSA conference in Canberra this year, the amount of people who were accepted into top tier law firms was spread right across the insitutions. UTS, UWS, UOW, Bond, Melb, Flinders etc... it's far from how it is in America, although given the recent moves by Melb. Uni to introduce the Melbourne Model, then this could change sooner rather than later.

Well of course the number of people accepted into law firms are spread out across the universities, that wasn't a point in contention. A quick look at the survey in the link I posted does say something about the (uneven) numbers though - it looks like students from top law schools are more likely to be recruited and retained at top law firms.

A case in point - as mentioned in the article I linked, the survey showed only one JCU graduate was recruited in the 2007 cohort. I understand that not all students who go to law school are interested in working in a top law firm, and not all law students are interested in pursuing a career in law but for only one out of a whole years graduating class to be accepted into a top tier? Not to mention the five law schools with no recruits at all. But of course that is purely speculation, I'm certain there are other factors such as distance and access for students of JCU (which would bring in another point regarding location of schools).

And another point worth mentioning - "it should be noted that some firms responded to the above question with a list of universities they have hired graduates from in recent years, rather than specifically 2007, and so the table should be viewed on that basis.". So really, for some law firms this survey is a snapshot over a number of years not just 2007. And even so - ""It is also the case that only 23 of the 29 law schools were listed by the firms when responding to the survey.".

The recent move by Uni of Melb serves to emphasise the relatively new graduate JD cohort in the Australian legal industry. Law firms are gradually opening up to the experience and extrinsic expertise JD graduates can bring and in fact some top law firms are now making specific arrangements for JD students to participate in summer/winter clerkships and articles recruitment by offering their own JD-specific schedule to suit the JD academic calendar. I think in time the demographic of the average recruit will be fairly evenly spread out between undergrad LLBs, grad LLBs and JDs.

 

[Raiks]

Umm... should we also look at the geographical aspects of JCU with campuses in Townsville and Cairns, the number of top tier law firms recruiting would definitely be smaller from this university because of the relatively small number top tier firms in North QLD compard to Sydney and Melbourne. I'm sure we can safely assume that this might have an influence of the report results.

And the recent move by Uni of Melb has more to do with stripping itself of a humanities faculty previously ranked in the top 10 of the world, and replacing it with a more profitable melbourne model... it has more to do with create a discriminatory money spinning graduate school system at the expense of an equitable solution spread across all deserving faculties.

 

[RogueAcademic]

Umm... should we also look at the geographical aspects of JCU with campuses in Townsville and Cairns, the number of top tier law firms recruiting would definitely be smaller from this university because of the relatively small number top tier firms in North QLD compard to Sydney and Melbourne. I'm sure we can safely assume that this might have an influence of the report results.

I already mentioned geographical aspects in my post above, second paragraph.

it has more to do with create a discriminatory money spinning graduate school system at the expense of an equitable solution spread across all deserving faculties.

That is an emotive response, we're not talking about the humanities faculty.

Either way, the point I was trying to make is that regardless of any argument of a discriminatory school system, it's a system that the industry and potential students are responding to positively by adapting their practices to suit the new academic schedule. There was also an article in The Age that reported that enrolment is up for the new system, so go figure.

 

[Raiks]

Damn straight it's an emotive response, I make no reservations about that because I am totally against it. We are talking about the humanities faculty, because a uni is comprised of all it's faculty and the melbourne model is impacting severely on these other areas.

Enrollment is up because they are offering more places because they can afford to due to the new (mis)directed money given to them. The Melbourne Model will not be conducive to bright students with limited funds or family support who will need to find the means to finance two-years of extra study so they can enter the workplace. This area I think needs to be targeted, to ensure Uni of Melbourne and any other emulators are providing for the broadest possible clientele base, in that is doesn’t become another medallion for the already privileged. Access to education in this nation is seen as a right rather than a privilage and for universities such as Melbourne to be reducing equitable ways of enterance isn't something I agree with. Despite the possible benefits, there are still BIG equity questions. Graduate courses will be more expensive (even if on HECS) and the number of graduate places available for HECS students will be lower than under old model.

And as for introducing Generalist degrees? Well, what is a Science or Arts degree? Each has allowed immense diversity and overlap (eg. arts subjects in a science degree; maths in an arts degree), or you could do a double degree and get the mix you liked. You also had considerable flexibility in switching (credits towards the other degree), many students would come in from overseas unis and do a semester or a year, then go back to complete their home degree. Even within the sharper edged courses, like engineering, there is considerable scope as to what you specialised in (electrical, civil, chemical…). You could even defer a year (as I did). My point is, what is the problem that is being ‘fixed’ here?

 

[RogueAcademic]

I think you're wanting to start a new thread Raiks.

Do you have anything else to add regarding the survey I posted in context of the UoW LLB?

 

[RogueAcademic]

Just wanted to say - I agree with some of your points but in courses like (for eg) law and medicine, I'm a believer in the new graduate-only system. Broadly speaking it's a system that aims to produce older, mature applicants with some life experience, who are presumed to have made a more well-informed career choice. Generalist courses like a BA or BSc I don't believe needed an overhaul.

 

[dt673]

Rep is quite irrelevent to people that matter, put the work in, get the outcomes you work for and your degree.

More a response regarding the hardship a first year will have.

Theres plenty of support available to those students that are struggling.
PASS program for first years for example, taken up by the law faculty this year.

@Raiks, you attended ALSA this year? I have a feeling i've run into you before, im the law student society's IT Director.

 

[poloktim]

Rep is quite irrelevent to people that matter, put the work in, get the outcomes you work for and your degree.

More a response regarding the hardship a first year will have.

Theres plenty of support available to those students that are struggling.
PASS program for first years for example, taken up by the law faculty this year.

@Raiks, you attended ALSA this year? I have a feeling i've run into you before, im the law student society's IT Director.

Oh *that's* who you are. I know you now, I think.

/me loves finger.

 

[dt673]

your names familiar (link in your profile), just cant put a face to it.