Why the Japanese whaling "scientists" are batshit (1 Viewer)

[boris]

I really can't see how you can compare hunting animals and slaughtering whales mang.

All good hunters know that body shots are useless and defeat the purpose. Even if you're hunting for the kill, you're doing it to show precision. Not that you can just kill stuff.

If you're into killing coz you're a sicko, you generally just fill your North Shore office with rabbits and guinea pigs for sex.

 

[Kwayera]

How do you know that?

Qualitatively.

I get that they will reduce the numbers of whales, but until it's anywhere near the point where they're endangered I don't see why we care? Yes, you are engaging in an unsustainable farming method - So?

You don't have a problem with an "unsustainable farming method" that WILL result in a species becoming endangered?

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

Qualitatively.

See the thing is, you just don't. For all we know pigs have a far more indepth appreciation of their existence than whales do.

You don't have a problem with an "unsustainable farming method" that WILL result in a species becoming endangered?

Once it has been established that they are endangered I believe the farming should stop as to prevent extinction, until then, no.

 

[Kwayera]

Ok, so you're up for banning battery hens and setting tougher standards for pig farming? Kewl, being consistent is awesome.

Of course. I actually don't have a problem with eating pretty much anything, as long as it has been killed humanely and is not endangered (or threatened with endangerment). How's that for consistency?

They have less rights? They're not subjected to an entire life in captivity, born into a frightening, disease ridden, cramped gaol.

Again with the pig industry, the farmers have a vested interest in animals that are healthy and unafraid - otherwise they can't sell the meat. Now who's being morally inequal?

They'll miss. My understanding is that most Norwegian whalers kill the whale as soon as it's harpooned.

They don't because they can't. There is no quick method to induce instant death in a whale, especially consistently. And one would think the harpooning is cruel enough.

 

[Kwayera]

See the thing is, you just don't. For all we know pigs have a far more indepth appreciation of their existence than whales do.

You're right, just like we can't determine at present EXACTLY the nature of dark matter and its existence. The point is that, so far, cetaceans have been shown qualitatively to be highly intelligent; on a scale, they're near to the great apes. Pigs have corvidian intelligence, if less. AFAIK, feel free to correct me.

Once it has been established that they are endangered I believe the farming should stop as to prevent extinction, until then, no.

And that, I believe, is a further moral inequality. How can you advocate the near-permanant (considering whale growth rates, it is effectively permanant) destruction of such a large percentage of a species?

 

[A High Way Man]

Whales. hmm. i think i would care under normal circumstances, but i just cant devote myself to truly caring, so ill just say i dont care, at all.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

Of course. I actually don't have a problem with eating pretty much anything, as long as it has been killed humanely and is not endangered (or threatened with endangerment). How's that for consistency?

Seems fine enough for consistency, however I still think there's issues with meat in general (i.e. toll on the land) and how these animals are looked after. I really don't see how you can care so much about how they've been killed and not how they've been treated while alive.

Again with the pig industry, the farmers have a vested interest in animals that are healthy and unafraid - otherwise they can't sell the meat. Now who's being morally inequal?

Are you denying that pigs are treated inhumanely in factory farms?

They don't because they can't. There is no quick method to induce instant death in a whale, especially consistently. And one would think the harpooning is cruel enough.

They harpoon its head with an explosive device, it blows up and the whales brain explodes. It's not 'instant death', but it's far from the description of a whales death you gave which I'm sure is true in some circumstances... as it is true in some circumstances that hunters will miss a roo's head.

You're right, just like we can't determine at present EXACTLY the nature of dark matter and its existence. The point is that, so far, cetaceans have been shown qualitatively to be highly intelligent; on a scale, they're near to the great apes. Pigs have corvidian intelligence, if less. AFAIK, feel free to correct me.

The more studies are done the more we're finding out that all sorts of animals (at least in the test) seem to exhibit high intelligence. However, all these studies will be criticised... It's very hard to measure intelligence.

And that, I believe, is a further moral inequality. How can you advocate the near-permanant (considering whale growth rates, it is effectively permanant) destruction of such a large percentage of a species?

I don't necessarily see the benefit in having 100,000 more minke whales in the ocean.

 

[Kwayera]

Seems fine enough for consistency, however I still think there's issues with meat in general (i.e. toll on the land) and how these animals are looked after. I really don't see how you can care so much about how they've been killed and not how they've been treated while alive.

Are you denying that pigs are treated inhumanely in factory farms?

I deny that ALL farmed pigs are treated in this way, just like all chooks on the market aren't battery hens. I am certainly against inhumane factory farming, just as I am against an inhumane death.

They harpoon its head with an explosive device, it blows up and the whales brain explodes. It's not 'instant death', but it's far from the description of a whales death you gave which I'm sure is true in some circumstances... as it is true in some circumstances that hunters will miss a roo's head.

Correction, they aim for the largest part of the body; usually the midsection after the animal blows. Shooting a fleeing whale in the head, when it is only briefly out of the water, from a moving ship in the open sea is a one-in-a-million shot, and I can guarantee you that less than 95% of the time they don't get it. The harpoons typically enter an animal's side, explode and tear it's organs to shreds; the actual cause of death is subsequent blood loss or drowning. Only in a very small percentage of cases the animal takes less than 5 minutes to die; the average time is 15 minutes. Some large animals have been known (and recently, too) to take as long as 40.

The more studies are done the more we're finding out that all sorts of animals (at least in the test) seem to exhibit high intelligence. However, all these studies will be criticised... It's very hard to measure intelligence.

Then how can you say that pigs are smarter than whales and dogs?

I don't necessarily see the benefit in having 100,000 more minke whales in the ocean.

That's because you don't understand anything about ecology. Apex predators have a significant role in the regulation of a food web.

Did you know that hundreds of species of deep-sea worms that fed exclusively on sunken whale carcasses, dead from old age, have gone extinct in the past 100 years because of whaling? Worms that have an impact on deep-sea oxygen levels, which affect deep-sea plankton, which affect krill, which affects our fish food stocks. It may not be a significant effect, but it is an effect - everything is connected, and everything has an influence in some measurable way.

 

[chicky_pie]

i can honestly say intensive pig farming is not humane

note that pigs are more intelligent than whales or dogs ^_^

Well that explains why Muslims don't eat pork

 

[Kwayera]

Actually, they don't eat pork because way back in the day pigs had a very heavy parasite load, and they didn't know how to both sanitarily raise the animal to avoid it and how to prepare the meat properly if it was infected.

They didn't know that, but the meat usually made you sick, and was thus "unclean".

 

[chicky_pie]

Actually, they don't eat pork because way back in the day pigs had a very heavy parasite load, and they didn't know how to both sanitarily raise the animal to avoid it and how to prepare the meat properly if it was infected.

They didn't know that, but the meat usually made you sick, and was thus "unclean".

Really? Wow I never knew that thanks for the insight, I kinda thought the real reason why they refuse to eat it, is because Satan transform himself into a pig and attack god's followers or something along that line, silly me

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

I deny that ALL farmed pigs are treated in this way, just like all chooks on the market aren't battery hens. I am certainly against inhumane factory farming, just as I am against an inhumane death.

Agreed. Would you ban these practices?

Correction, they aim for the largest part of the body; usually the midsection after the animal blows. Shooting a fleeing whale in the head, when it is only briefly out of the water, from a moving ship in the open sea is a one-in-a-million shot, and I can guarantee you that less than 95% of the time they don't get it. The harpoons typically enter an animal's side, explode and tear it's organs to shreds; the actual cause of death is subsequent blood loss or drowning. Only in a very small percentage of cases the animal takes less than 5 minutes to die; the average time is 15 minutes. Some large animals have been known (and recently, too) to take as long as 40.

This is surely a terrible way to die, I'd say about as terrible as living your life locked up in a tight cage unable to move with shit all over you. I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to have some specific moral outrage over one case of injustice. IMHO the main reason why a lot of people (not necessarily you) care so much about whales in particular is mainly because they have an aesthetic/romantic fondness for them, thus why whale watching is so popular.

Then how can you say that pigs are smarter than whales and dogs?

I don't think I said that, but if I did I retract it. I don't think they're necessarily smarter, I just think there's been studies done which show they have very high intelligence/sentience as well.

That's because you don't understand anything about ecology. Apex predators have a significant role in the regulation of a food web.

Did you know that hundreds of species of deep-sea worms that fed exclusively on sunken whale carcasses, dead from old age, have gone extinct in the past 100 years because of whaling? Worms that have an impact on deep-sea oxygen levels, which affect deep-sea plankton, which affect krill, which affects our fish food stocks. It may not be a significant effect, but it is an effect - everything is connected, and everything has an influence in some measurable way.

Sure thing. So we've hunted the shit out these animals for a long time and knocked total whale numbers down by probably millions, where's the practical effect ? Personally I think the problems that have arisen as a result of these practices are probably fairly esoteric. Let's compare this against factory farming practices which are inhumane and have a dramatic impact on our environment.

 

[cs01001]

Time to send in the Australian Navy, they need some practice

 

[Kwayera]

Agreed. Would you ban these practices?

In a heartbeat.

This is surely a terrible way to die, I'd say about as terrible as living your life locked up in a tight cage unable to move with shit all over you. I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to have some specific moral outrage over one case of injustice. IMHO the main reason why a lot of people (not necessarily you) care so much about whales in particular is mainly because they have an aesthetic/romantic fondness for them, thus why whale watching is so popular.

I care about whales because of that, yes, but also because there is a higher moral quandry: do we have the right to send a species to a brink of extinction? I think this is the same question as "do we have the right to treat animals inhumanely", and I honestly believe the answer is no, in both cases.

Sure thing. So we've hunted the shit out these animals for a long time and knocked total whale numbers down by probably millions, where's the practical effect ? Personally I think the problems that have arisen as a result of these practices are probably fairly esoteric.

If by 'practical' you mean 'effect on humans' then yes, it is esoteric. I don't think the worms are too happy about being sent to extinction, however (I'll hopefully be studying this next year for honours); but hey, those worms aren't directly economically useful, so no one cares about the worms.

 

[Kwayera]

Time to send in the Australian Navy, they need some practice

That would in effect be an act of war against Japan.

I hear that's bad for business (not that I don't agree with you).

 

[boris]

That would in effect be an act of war against Japan.

I hear that's bad for business (not that I don't agree with you).

Fuck Japan, do they still have that military ban imposed after WW2?


I don't trust those fuckers.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

I've got no problem with your views then. I just don't think your justified anti-whaling stance is shared with everyone who protests it so vehemently.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Time to send in the Australian Navy, they need some practice

agreed, the whales are a good approximation to enemy mini-subs and we don't get to torpedo much these days

 

[Kwayera]

Incorrect, because other civilisations around the time ate pigs (You could tell Jewish settlements by the lack of porcine bones) and they did not die out which is proven by the fact that those societies spread.

The porcine issue has to do with the similarities between Pigs and man. Pigs are notoriously hard to farm, when they are killed in fear their meat sours and is awful to eat, hell, burned human flesh smells like pig crackling.

Oh might I also mention the cloven hoof? Seen as the sign of devilry?

The notion of the parasite load was debunked several years ago.

I stand corrected. I haven't kept up to date on the recent literature regarding theories as to why various Abrahamic religions have a distaste for porcine meat

 

[Kwayera]

My God, It's full of evidence!

Well at least I'm prepared to concede when I'm wrong. You, on the other had, will argue that black is white until you're blue in the face, if it suits you.