The legitimacy of depression as an illness. (7 Viewers)

[katie tully]

Compare and contrast - two high profile suicides in the last 12 months.
That guy off All Saints and that chick from Channel 10. According to those closest to them, everything seemed fine and there were no warning signs.

Compare this to somebody who has been in hospital 3 times for "suicide attempts", somebody who constantly fucks up and blames in on depression and tells everybody how depressed they are, etc. To me that sounds more like a borderline personality disorder.

 

[KFunk]

'Illness', to me at least, has connotations of a medical condition which with the right therapy can be overcome, cured, defeated. The labelling of depression as an "illness" is, I believe, medicalising something which is an inherent part of many people's personalities. I think, as sad as it is, to exist in a permanent state of sadness and despair, is possibly something that falls within the normal variations of human personality and existence.

...

I'm struggling with the definition of "illness". I had ideas about illness meaning something of a reasonable degree of severity (which obviously has issues of measurability and classification), but I may be mistaken. Is the common cold, the meekest of viruses, typically thought of as an illness? Not that I'm comparing a cold to depression in severity or any other terms, I simply want a reference.

A couple comments: you wouldn't want to define illness as something which can be overcome, cured, or defeated as there are many bona fide medical conditions for which there is essentially no treatment. Also note that there are medical 'conditions' which similarly fall within a spectrum of variation, e.g. Osteoporosis which is defined as bone mineral density that is -2.5 SD or more from the mean. Between -2.5 SD and -1.5 SD you have osteopenia.

Similar arbitrary cut-offs are all through medicine. How much is 'too much' when looking at potassium (hyperkalaemia) or bilirubin (jaundice/hyperbilirubinaemia), or acid (acidosis)? There is statistical reasoning behind the cut-offs, but they are still essentially arbitrary and fall on a continuum of values which include 'normal'.

--> compare this to the different categories of depressive disorder which essentially fall along a spectrum (with 'normal'). There are many researchers advocating the use of a spectrum (possibly two) when theorising about depressive disorder. It will be interesting to see how the revised definitions of depression turn out in DSM-V.

 

[KFunk]

Just to reiterate - I'm still interested to see someone come up with a workable definition of 'illness'.

Essentially what I'm wanting you to notice is that the problem here isn't really with 'mental illness', per se, but rather with illness in general. It is really hard to find a definition that is satisfactory throughout most of medicine. In trying to develop a definition you should notice that many of the same problems (that come up in the context of mental illness) befall classically 'medical' entities.

 

[Marmalade.]

you're probably going to hate me for this but when people do that i don't feel pity i feel anger. How could someone give up on life, give up on themselves and those around them... no matter how bad your life is you still have one and some people in many parts of the world go through more than what he probably had just to hold onto life itself and he threw it all away like it was nothing.

I half-agree with what you're saying, but people with a true mental illness are fucked up. You wouldn't tell a schizphrenic to harden the fuck up and stop hallucinating, would you?

 

[katie tully]

Just to reiterate - I'm still interested to see someone come up with a workable definition of 'illness'.

Essentially what I'm wanting you to notice is that the problem here isn't really with 'mental illness', per se, but rather with illness in general. It is really hard to find a definition that is satisfactory throughout most of medicine. In trying to develop a definition you should notice that many of the same problems (that come up in the context of mental illness) befall classically 'medical' entities.

What definition do they use in court when they classify somebody as not responsible for their actions on the grounds of mental illness?

 

[SnowFox]

What definition do they use in court when they classify somebody as not responsible for their actions on the grounds of mental illness?

Mental illness or temporary insanity.

 

[sunsettah]

The OP's initial post is fucking ridiculous.

 

[katie tully]

Canard detected.

I don't see how. Do you honestly believe that every single thing that is wrong with us should be treated with medication first?

But coming from somebody who can't function on less than 15 dexies, maybe I'm asking the wrong person.

 

[KFunk]

What definition do they use in court when they classify somebody as not responsible for their actions on the grounds of mental illness?

As with so many vague parts of the legal system they defer to 'judgement' and 'reason' AFAIK. More specifically, the judgement of an expert like a forensic psychiatrist.

Any legal definition would probably be couched in vague terms like agency, sound mindedness, responsibility, etc which don't adequately specify instances of illness (that is, in the absence of expert assessment/judgement). Legal heads: please correct me if I am wrong on this.

 

[katie tully]

I can function perfectly well EDIT: High level Executive function ftw

In all honesty the 'Overmedicated' argument has been one that's come from the CAM industry for the past 15 years. Leaving aside the trend in growth in new medications, are the actual level of prescriptions in the community increasing outside of growth in medical knowledge and population growths?

It's all well and good to claim something, but you'll need to cite evidence. Anecdote won't fly. You know me, if you show the evidence I'll accept the proposition.

plz don't make me go and research things, i'm so tired. so, so tired.

consider it an IOU

 

[possessionless]

i definatly believe its real.
ive seen people suffer from it first hand & it seriously isnt pretty.

 

[Hagaren]

You are a dumb fuck. And you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
See how it says in most cases, and also, people claiming to have depression
You remind me of my ex boyfriend. "What the fuck have you got to be depressed about? Stop using it as an excuse you dumb bitch.
I'm the dumb fuck but you were in a relationship with someone who spoke to you like this, and obviously must not have been there for you when you probably needed it

NO.

Severe depression, or even minor, is wrought with physical symptoms.
Would you please list some these symptoms instead of just saying there are some that way people might actually learn something from this post, i never said that there never isn't

My psychiatrist and doctors have proved a lot of this to me over the years.
not being a dick but the fact you have suffered from it probably makes your views biased, but the fact i haven't probably makes mine ill informed

My difficultly swallowing foods, intense chest pains at random, tiredness for no
apparent reason, and vomiting when under intense stress... Have all been described to me as something that comes with my depression/anxiety problems.
If these are the physical symptoms you are talking about they aren't always that noticeable by people around you, and many of them could easily be associated with something else


No offence, but people like you are why it's such a taboo subject in today's youth. Most are too scared to even mention it to people, and (as you pointed out) most of the rest of them are stupid little emo kids who cut themselves and therefore the doctors have no choice but to do something about it to avoid scornful parents.
It's probably people that aren't like me who are responsible for it's taboo because people who aren't like me wouldn't have made this an open discussion

Who am I kidding, I retract that 'no offence' statement.
who am i kidding, you're an absolute fuckwit

think about it.

 

[shell.q]

It is real, and it is the hardest thing to watch someone you love go through or watch yourself go through and put those you love in some of the worst positions.
Yes i believe as some have said, there are some out there that need to realise life is hard and you need to build a bridge and get over this crap.....or just the simple emo kids who make this who taboo about it. in witch i dont like.

I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and severe anxiety disorder bak in 2007, that was after hiding it from my rents for years. and i now realise that i will have to live with it the rest of my life, i would never wish it on anyone. the hardest part is to realise that i have to live with it and anybody that i have a close relationship has to, thats the worst part. I have a brother who went through something similar and i no how it hurts to watch someone go through just as much. Suicide seems like the easiest way out at times as selfish as it may seem. i dont understand why people would do it, although i have thought about it many times. its all in the sudden moment where you feel like no one and nothing could get better. I have had one personal encounter with suicide and each day you ask why they did it. but never will find the answer.

all in all though, depression is an illness yes, it is one of the biggest killers in the world, it kills more people each day then heart attacks or diabetes. It is a silent illness and a silent killer

 

[Cookie182]

It is real, and it is the hardest thing to watch someone you love go through or watch yourself go through and put those you love in some of the worst positions.
Yes i believe as some have said, there are some out there that need to realise life is hard and you need to build a bridge and get over this crap.....or just the simple emo kids who make this who taboo about it. in witch i dont like.

I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and severe anxiety disorder bak in 2007, that was after hiding it from my rents for years. and i now realise that i will have to live with it the rest of my life, i would never wish it on anyone. the hardest part is to realise that i have to live with it and anybody that i have a close relationship has to, thats the worst part. I have a brother who went through something similar and i no how it hurts to watch someone go through just as much. Suicide seems like the easiest way out at times as selfish as it may seem. i dont understand why people would do it, although i have thought about it many times. its all in the sudden moment where you feel like no one and nothing could get better. I have had one personal encounter with suicide and each day you ask why they did it. but never will find the answer.
all in all though, depression is an illness yes, it is one of the biggest killers in the world, it kills more people each day then heart attacks or diabetes. It is a silent illness and a silent killer

See that's where the problem begins. Now you have given your mental state a label- and you act through this label, as though feeling constantly down is not your fault, but due to some 'external reason' or sickness. If you believe it is out of your control, then where is the incentive to become happier? Quite frankly, 'depression' is not caused by a chemical imbalance- being in a depressed state releases certain chemicals, but this is not the cause. IMO it is just a mental state like happiness, and you can control state. I know people face tragic events in their lives, but giving the negative feelings an 'illness label' never helps IMO- it just breeds victim mentality in these people.

I think in many cases, this state arises through identity conflicts- living in constant seek of ego-gratification etc. When you just take a step back from your thoughts and realise that you are in complete control, you can literally go from sad to happy within seconds. If something is not going right, I simply accept the now and take positive action forward.

 

[SnowFox]

See that's where the problem begins. Now you have given your mental state a label- and you act through this label, as though feeling constantly down is not your fault, but due to some 'external reason' or sickness. Quite frankly, 'depression' is not caused by a chemical imbalance- being in a depressed state releases certain chemicals, but this is not the cause. IMO it is just a mental state like happiness, and you can control state. I know people face tragic events in their lives, but giving the negative feelings an 'illness label' never helps IMO- it just breeds victim mentality in these people.

You cant control depression. What a stupid thing to think or say.

Read this then say depression isnt a chemical imbalance.

 

[katie tully]

You cant control depression. What a stupid thing to think or say.

Read this then say depression isnt a chemical imbalance.

Well you can. Essentially you are controlling depression when you take medication/therapy to treat it.

 

[SnowFox]

I think he was talking in the context of just flicking it off like a switch.

 

[Iron]

- Manuel... my wife informs me that you're... depressed. Let me tell you something. Depression is a very bad thing. It's like a virus. If you don't stamp on it, it spreads throughout the mind, and then one day you wake up in the morning and you... you can't face life any more!

-And then you open a hotel.

 

[katie tully]

hahaha <3 FT

 

[Sicherhetsdient]

hmm, i believe depression does exists but some people do need to harden the fuck up. however, what i don't understand wtf anti depression drugs that doctors prescribe do? make you happy? WTF