French President Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France (5 Viewers)

[Sprangler]

read my post you fucking cross eyed ant

i said

if you're going to ban one thing, you should ban them all. but seeing as how they don't actually hurt anyone, i dont see the point. i didnt say crosses and jew stars were oppressive.

Durf. He didn't ban the burqa because it is a religious symbol, he banned it because it is a symbol of oppression that happens to be religious. If Christians or Jews wore things that covered their whole body then he would ban them too.

 

[Kwayera]

What about nuns and their gowns/habits? Playing the devil's advocate here, but it's a somewhat appropriate comparison.

 

[JonathanM]

What about nuns and their gowns/habits? Playing the devil's advocate here, but it's a somewhat appropriate comparison.

Good point - I was stumped by that. They should be banned as well though, in accordance with France's secular values.

I guess there just isn't that taboo associated with the nun-wear that there isn't with the burqa. For good reason though.

 

[katie tully]

Durf. He didn't ban the burqa because it is a religious symbol, he banned it because it is a symbol of oppression that happens to be religious. If Christians or Jews wore things that covered their whole body then he would ban them too.

Are you god damn retarded?

I'm saying ffs regardless of the motherfucking reason, if you're going to ban one religious symbol from one religion, then all religious symbols from all religions should be banned.

Thus, as that would be an impossible feat, none should be banned.

 

[Kwayera]

Well, when you think about it, it's almost as oppressive. Girls/women enter cloisters often under community/familial pressure and can spend their entire lives in the habit, unable to have meaningful relationships with men or indeed "normal" people.

Whether you believe it is the right thing or not, telling people that they can't wear a piece of clothing is an obstruction of civil liberties.

This.

 

[MelindaMelinda]

im a muslim but i dont wear the head scarf but i think all religions have a right to practice their religions in their own way. there are ways in which countries can keep their secure from terrorist like have rooms in banks so that the women can take off their burqre and show that they have nothing dangerous hiding. i respect the french president but this is going too far.

 

[banco55]

im a muslim but i dont wear the head scarf but i think all religions have a right to practice their religions in their own way. there are ways in which countries can keep their secure from terrorist like have rooms in banks so that the women can take off their burqre and show that they have nothing dangerous hiding. i respect the french president but this is going too far.

Why the should banks have to accommodate them in any way? They can either take off the stupid thing or hide their money under their mattress.

 

[banco55]

yeah bro. the police. The same police who so magnificent are trying to figure out who are being forced to wear a tent and who are not.

Oh I agree that police are unlikely to become aware of abusive relationships between muslims in France (they probably wouldn't have time to do anything else if they spent time investigating them). Nevertheless making policy decisions on the basis of: "If we ban burqas their husbands won't let them leave the house at all" seems like it's conceding a lot.

I think France made a decision to not give citizenship to a woman last year because she wore a burqa. That is a good start.

 

[khorne]

im a muslim but i dont wear the head scarf but i think all religions have a right to practice their religions in their own way.

Do you realise, when you go to another country, you should accept their values? I am not against Islam, but if they want to practice their religion and values to a full extent, don't move to a secular western society. Why not, instead of the population tolerating their values, the immigrants accept the countries values.

Exact same thing here...I moved from Europe, and, while the culture's aren't very different, I don't try and force people to speak my Language, but instead, I learnt English.

So I am supporting the French president here. Everyone has the right to practice their religion, no doubt, but each country has it's values and customs, and equal rights for men and women are among the most important.

 

[Sprangler]

Are you god damn retarded?

I'm saying ffs regardless of the motherfucking reason, if you're going to ban one religious symbol from one religion, then all religious symbols from all religions should be banned.

Thus, as that would be an impossible feat, none shoulzd be banned.

The reason for the ban IS relevant, the ban is not about trying to secularize French society even more or targeting one religion (Islam in this case), it is about banning an article of clothing that is oppressive, one that robs a woman of her identity. The fact that it happens to be part of religious culture is irrelevant.

im a muslim but i dont wear the head scarf but i think all religions have a right to practice their religions in their own way. there are ways in which countries can keep their secure from terrorist like have rooms in banks so that the women can take off their burqre and show that they have nothing dangerous hiding. i respect the french president but this is going too far.

Yeah, secular society should accommodate for religious customs. Like since 9/11 airports across the world are spending billions of dollars more on security, just for Muslims.

 

[Tully B.]

What about nuns and their gowns/habits? Playing the devil's advocate here, but it's a somewhat appropriate comparison.

Quite appropriate.

What sort of law is Sarkozy planning on introducing?
"You must show no less than 10% of your skin"?

Quite apart from my quarrels with its prevention of Freedom, I don't see any realistic policy being introduced without specific mention of the burqa, which would mean that it is not an issue of preventing misogynistic oppression but of implementing religious opression. If it was one of oppression, then he would introduce clear guidelines that outline what is OK to wear an what is not.

I was in Germany once, and was covered head to toe in layers upon layers of clothing, due to the extreme cold that I was experiencing. In order to see, I slit to holes in my beany. Under Sarkozy's proposed law, would I not be able to do this? At this point, we're not talking about freedom or oppression; we're talking about frostbite.

 

[Tully B.]

Yeah, secular society should accommodate for religious customs. Like since 9/11 airports across the world are spending billions of dollars more on security, just for Muslims.

You're quite racist, now, aren't you?

"Islamic extemist is to Islam as KKK is to Christianity".

Just a thought.

EDIT: First person to tell me where this comes from gets rep.

 

[B_B_J]

wtf is secular society? I didn't know it meant ban everything religious.

 

[pman]

I thought this thread said that he was banning burgers.

You can't really ban an item of clothing becouse it covers too much of the body or is a simble of religious opression, the women are free not to be muslim yet they choose to follow that faith, they don't even have to wear a burqa but they choose to, their clothing only has to be modest so no mini-skirts and boob tubes

 

[JonathanM]

wtf is secular society? I didn't know it meant ban everything religious.

That is the idea. The principle of secularism in France, described as there being no "(religious) nation within a nation" was way too early for it's time in 1789 and it seems, from this thread, that we are still not ready for it as religious apologists continue trying to drag us down a level.

I will repost, because it is pretty much exactly what we are arguing about, the excerpt from the famous speech which led to the principle of a secular society in France.

"We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals. We must withdraw recognition from their judges; they should only have our judges. We must refuse legal protection to the maintenance of the so-called laws of their Judaic organization; they should not be allowed to form in the state either a political body or an order. They must be citizens individually. But, some will say to me, they do not want to be citizens. Well then! If they do not want to be citizens, they should say so, and then, we should banish them. It is repugnant to have in the state an association of non-citizens, and a nation within the nation..."

 

[B_B_J]

I am sick of the hypocrites.

Either you stand by the "secular France" argument and ban everything. ie A Jew cap, a Sikh turban, a Jesus cross.

But don't you dare stand behind the "woman oppression". you have absolutely zero evidence to suggest that every single woman who wears the burqa does so because she is forced to.

 

[B_B_J]

Oh I agree that police are unlikely to become aware of abusive relationships between muslims in France (they probably wouldn't have time to do anything else if they spent time investigating them). Nevertheless making policy decisions on the basis of: "If we ban burqas their husbands won't let them leave the house at all" seems like it's conceding a lot.

I think France made a decision to not give citizenship to a woman last year because she wore a burqa. That is a good start.

oh so you cant prove person X is being forced to wear it.....you do a short cut and ban the thing. yeah great "democracy"

 

[katie tully]

The reason for the ban IS relevant, the ban is not about trying to secularize French society even more or targeting one religion (Islam in this case), it is about banning an article of clothing that is oppressive, one that robs a woman of her identity. The fact that it happens to be part of religious culture is irrelevant.

Who gives a flying fuck? Do you think by not allowing them to wear the garment, they're suddenly going to stop being oppressed? And so what if they are oppressed, according to us. That's their prerogative.

Identity? Fuck off you el gronko. The burqa is her identity, she's a Muslim ffs.

 

[B_B_J]

who gives a flying fuck? Do you think by not allowing them to wear the garment, they're suddenly going to stop being oppressed? And so what if they are oppressed, according to us. That's their prerogative.

Identity? Fuck off you el gronko. The burqa is her identity, she's a muslim ffs.

qft. Best post ITT.

 

[katie tully]

wtf is gft