Ayaan Hirsi Ali (6 Viewers)

[runoutofsleep]

was it morally right?

 

[Yo1anda]

Was morally accepted.



You must firstly understand that in Islam there is no separation between the state and religion. Apostasy is essentially considered treason to the state. And treason just like everywhere else is punishable by death. Seeing as there is no Islamic state, said punishment is currently irrelevant.



Said slaves were essentially captives from war. And no, punishment for a slave who runs away is not severe beating.

The freeing of slaves is actually encouraged in Islam as a method of phasing the concept of slavery out. Just like alcohol was slowly phased out so was slavery.

There is nothing in Islam that says "When people stop living like animals, then you should stop having sex with menstruating 10 year olds". Islam is defined as a universal religion and its pillars are meant to be eternal.

Saudia Arabia is an Islamic state. Don't kid yourselves.

Caliph Omar was the one who got rid of slavery. Oh wait, Shi'ites hate him. So the shi'ites are okay with slavery. Oh cool. Why did Omar need to get rid of it? Why couldn't Mohammed do it? OH YEAH, HE LIKED FUCKING HIS CONCUBINES A WEE BIT TOO MUCH.

 

[Kwayera]

You must firstly understand that in Islam there is no separation between the state and religion. Apostasy is essentially considered treason to the state. And treason just like everywhere else is punishable by death. Seeing as there is no Islamic state, said punishment is currently irrelevant.

Hmmm.

Early in Islamic history, the only form of treason was seen as the attempt to overthrow a just government or waging war against the State. According to Arab tradition the prescribed punishment ranged from imprisonment to the severing of limbs and the death penalty depending on the severity of the crime, however even in cases of treason the repentance of a person would have to be taken into account.[9] However contrary to popular belief Apostasy was not considered Treason, and there is no example of punishment during Muhammed's time.

Currently, the consensus among major Islamic schools is that it is considered treason if a Muslim converts (see also Apostasy in Islam), although there is no support for this in the Quran. The penalty is death.[10][11][12][13][14][15] This confusion between apostasy and treason almost certainly had its roots in the Ridda Wars, in which an army of rebel traitors led by the self-proclaimed prophet Musaylima attempted to destroy the caliphate of Abu Bakr.

In the nineteenth and early twentieth century, the Iranian Cleric Sheikh Fazlollah Noori opposed the Iranian Constitutional Revolution by inciting insurrection against them through issuing Fatwahs and publishing pamphlets arguing democracy will bring vice to the country. The new government executed him for treason in 1909. In Malaysia, it is treason to commit offences against the Yang di-Pertuan Agong’s person, waging, attempting to wage war or abetting the waging of war against the Yang di-Pertuan Agong, a Ruler or Yang di-Pertua Negeri. All these offences are punishable by hanging, which derives from the English treason acts (a former British colony, Malaysia's legal system is based on English common law).

 

[Chemical Ali]

Was morally accepted.

God's word is unchangeable; he gets described that way by Allah directly. If Allah isn't right about that anymore, can Allah's word about other things be wrong now?

 

[Yo1anda]

Apostasy in Islam

Please note that there are two types of apostates: murtad fitri and murtad milli. "The fist means that one has been born a Muslim. The second that one has converted to Islam. In the first case, if someone who has been born a Muslim OPENLY AND FREELY REJECTS the Religion of Islam (which means he considers the Holy Prophet to be liar astagfirullah) then he has to be killed IRRESPECTIVE of whether he repents or not. Maybe Allah will accept his repentance but he still has to be punished in this world."

 

[Kwayera]

Apostasy in Islam

Please note that there are two types of apostates: murtad fitri and murtad milli. "The fist means that one has been born a Muslim. The second that one has converted to Islam. In the first case, if someone who has been born a Muslim OPENLY AND FREELY REJECTS the Religion of Islam (which means he considers the Holy Prophet to be liar astagfirullah) then he has to be killed IRRESPECTIVE of whether he repents or not. Maybe Allah will accept his repentance but he still has to be punished in this world."

Note that for female apostates, the sentence appears to be either death or imprisonment until they repent.

 

[ibbi00]

Hmmm.

Someone sourcing their information from a Wikipedia article that lacks citation should not be taken seriously in a debate.

 

[runoutofsleep]

was it morally right?

guess i'm being a brick wall again

 

[ibbi00]

Apostasy in Islam

Please note that there are two types of apostates: murtad fitri and murtad milli. "The fist means that one has been born a Muslim. The second that one has converted to Islam. In the first case, if someone who has been born a Muslim OPENLY AND FREELY REJECTS the Religion of Islam (which means he considers the Holy Prophet to be liar astagfirullah) then he has to be killed IRRESPECTIVE of whether he repents or not. Maybe Allah will accept his repentance but he still has to be punished in this world."

Again, you lack the credibility. CITATION should come either from a) Quran b) Hadith c) Credible and recognised scholars.

 

[Kwayera]

Someone sourcing their information from a Wikipedia article that lacks citation should not be taken seriously in a debate.

Lacking citations? Really?

Most of that is a summary of this: Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which has lots and lots of citations


Attack the argument.

 

[Kwayera]

Again, you lack the credibility. CITATION should come either from a) Quran b) Hadith c) Credible and recognised scholars.

You don't really get Wikipedia, do you?

 

[Chemical Ali]

God's word is unchangeable; he gets described that way by Allah directly. If Allah isn't right about that anymore, can Allah's word about other things be wrong now?

As far as I can tell, if Allah says something is good, AND his word is eternal, infallible and unchangeable, THEN it must be good for all times and all places.

 

[ibbi00]

Lacking citations? Really?

Most of that is a summary of this: Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which has lots and lots of citations


Attack the argument.

Great work there. Paste a Wikipedia link and hope that it magically unravels a rational argument for you.

 

[Kwayera]

Great work there. Paste a Wikipedia link and hope that it magically unravels a rational argument for you.

So are you actually going to argue against the substance of what I posted?

 

[ibbi00]

You don't really get Wikipedia, do you?

I do. The previous extract from Wikipedia had citations from FOXnews.com ... C'mon.

 

[ibbi00]

So are you actually going to argue against the substance of what I posted?

You posted a link for god's sake... Here's a tip on how you should proceed.

1. Skim through the article.
2. Highlight points you believe to be of a rational and credible substance.
3. PASTE THEM HERE.

 

[Yo1anda]

The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.

If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.

The Hanafites are of the opinion that it does not matter whether the apostate is a freeman or a slave.

The Shafi´ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi´ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not.

It has been told about our master, Umar b. al-Khattab -- may Allah be pleased with him -- that a man was sent to him by Abu Mosa al-Ashaari. Umar asked him: "Do you have any good news?"; the man said, "Yes, a man apostatised from Islam, so we killed him." Umar said: "Did you first take him into custody for three days, giving him one loaf per day, so that he may repent? O Allah -- you are a witness -- I was not there, neither did I give any orders, nor did I concede to that action." This story was mentioned by Malek the imam in his book, Al-Muwattu, to the effect that Umar disapproved of what they did. Thus, one can conclude from this event that an apostate must be given a three-day time limit before he is put to death.

If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217). If the apostate returns to Islam, he need not repeat the pilgrimage which had been performed before the apostasy. This is unlike the Hanafites who said: If the apostate repents, he must repeat the pilgrimage, because his apostasy has nullified it.

The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. During his confinement, he is to be given food and drink, which are to be paid out of his assets, while his wife and children are not being cared for by his assets. If he has no assets, he is to be cared for by the public treasury or House of Property (bait ulmal), whether he promises to repent or not. He is not to be beaten in prison, even if he persists in his apostasy. He is surely to be given many chances to repent within this time-limit, in order to prevent bloodshed or punishment resulting from doubts. This should clear up his doubts and give him time to reconsider, so that he may change his mind and repent. If the judge decides on his death before the end of this grace period, his decision is legally binding, because he has ruled on a disputed issue. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed. He is to be buried neither in the cemeteries of the Muslims nor of the unbelievers (kuffar), for he is not one of them, having once been a Muslim. In fact, his body is to be thrown upon the ground as a public example.

The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.


Light of Life: The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam

 

[Kwayera]

You posted a link for god's sake... Here's a tip on how you should proceed.

1. Skim through the article.
2. Highlight points you believe to be of a rational and credible substance.
3. PASTE THEM HERE.

http://community.boredofstudies.org...ics/248077/ayaan-hirsi-ali/3.html#post5168710

 

[zombie omie jay]

hahah why do you guys keep humoring them

call them pigs and move on, they are holding onto these beliefs, they arent too bright

 

[Yo1anda]

Sura 9:74

They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.