Biofuels (2 Viewers)

[Captain Hero]

What about really seedy homeless dudes, I'm sure we could mine phosphate from those guys if you know what I'm saying. It's not like society would miss them hey.

 

[Pace_T]

With a rising population and emerging India, China and Latin America, I really don't think that increasing food competition is a good idea.

these countries should be destroyed. cant anybody see theyre ruining our world?

OUR WORLD

 

[Captain Hero]

China's population is declining rapidly, guy.

 

[Pace_T]

China's population is declining rapidly, guy.

now indias turn

 

[Captain Hero]

now indias turn

Nah because they don't have a One Child policy, and thus haven't both kneecapped any future growth, but also torn off the leg and thrown it into the sea.

 

[Trefoil]

You only need phosphate if you're a fuckwit broadacre spaz in which case you will already be owned by a multinational anyhows.

That's fascinating, champ.

Phosphorus is a component of DNA and RNA, as well as ATP, and is an essential element for all living cells. The most important commercial use of phosphorus-based chemicals is the production of fertilizers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorus

An average adult human contains a little less than 1 kg of phosphorus, about 85% of which is present in bones and teeth in the form of apatite, and the remainder inside cells in soft tissues. A well-fed adult in the industrialized world consumes and excretes about 1-3 g of phosphorus per day in the form of phosphate.

Oh my.

Phosphate is not needed for growing shit as it fucks the soil anyway, locking ups nutrients.

DNA and photosynthesis are based on ATP (adenosine triphosphate). Without phosphate, plants can not grow, produce energy, or reproduce (i.e. produce seeds or fruit).

Without phosphorus, all life on earth would die.

You need only look at any old fertiliser to see something called it's 'N-P-K' value: nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer#Macronutrient_fertilizers

Take a close look at that nice little picture.

Phosphate will not reach peak dickhead, ever heard of the haber process? 33% of the worlds fertilisers are made using the haber process and it uses 3% of the worlds natural gas supply to do this.

Haber process? You mean this?

N2(g) + 3H2(g) ⇌ 2NH3(g)

Can you please explain to me where the phosphorous is in that, dickhead?

Phosphorus is an extremely reactive element. As such, it is always bound to something. The cheapest, most readily available source is phosphate rock. There is only so many phosphate mines in the world, and most of them are at or past peak, or will be in the next few decades.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp - there isn't an infinite supply of phosphate rock. You can see the actually peak phosphate numbers here: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/33164

You can read more about it here: http://phosphorusfutures.net/index.php

As you can see, America's phosphate rock production already peaked in the 1980's, but that's a bit earlier than the world at large (similar situation with oil in America).

Also the majority of biofuels are proposed to be made out of waste products anyway.

No they are not. The majority are not currently made out of waste, and the majority are not planned to be made out of waste in the future. People plan to grow fulltime biofuel crops. It's lunacy.

I certainly don't mind biofuel research. Especially not waste conversion or algae fuel. But biofuel is not the longterm answer. Heck it's not even the short- or medium-term answer. That's my point.

 

[HNAKXR]

fuck biofuels, methane clathrate is the way to go!

 

[staticsiscool]

Added phosphorus you tool. Superphosphates. Not needed. Come back when you have some experience in growing crops without organophosphate fertilisers. I realise phosphorus is needed but not added. It locks up nutrients in the soil. Nitrogen for example.
Yes i didn't put that very well. I meant that in not needing phosphate it wont reach peak because of the nitrogen (ammonia) produced in the haber process will supply the fertilisers in the form nitrates.

 

[Trefoil]

Added phosphorus you tool. Superphosphates. Not needed. Come back when you have some experience in growing crops without organophosphate fertilisers. I realise phosphorus is needed but not added. It locks up nutrients in the soil. Nitrogen for example.

Yeah, you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I'll consult the Department of Primary Industries for you:

"Like most Australian soils, North Coast soils are naturally low in phosphorus due to extensive weathering. While native plants are adapted to these low levels, introduced crops and pasture grasses are not, which means you need to apply phosphorus fertilisers to soil to achieve productive yields. Australian farmers use much more phosphorus than nitrogen and potassium compared with farmers in Europe and USA.

Phosphorus fertilisers are available in several forms, all based on rock phosphate."

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/resources/soils/improvement/phosphorous

Yes i didn't put that very well. I meant that in not needing phosphate it wont reach peak because of the nitrogen (ammonia) produced in the haber process will supply the fertilisers in the form nitrates.

Once again: the Haber process doesn't produce phosphorus. But you need phosphorus in your fertilisers or your crop yield will be horrible (if they even grow to begin with). It doesn't matter how much nitrogen you produce, your crops are still doomed without phosphorus.

Now, I'm going to ask you to do some fucking research before your next reply, OK? Start here:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/33164
http://phosphorusfutures.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29
http://www1.fipr.state.fl.us/PhosphatePrimer
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/283/5410/2015

 

[Kwayera]

I certainly don't mind biofuel research. Especially not waste conversion or algae fuel. But biofuel is not the longterm answer. Heck it's not even the short- or medium-term answer. That's my point.

/Thread.

 

[colmadawg]

lol did YOU watch it last night?

It was completely bias towards ethanol usage and didn't touch on any of the ramifications at all.

Did you see the bit about Brazil wiping out 7 football fields worth of Amazon a minute?

Have you done some independent research?

its not all about the depletion of oil for use as a fuel, what about the use of ethylene as a foodstock for all other products made from crude oil... What are they gonna be made out of after oil is gone? oh yeh, u can get ethylene by dehydrating ethanol which will work, but wait, are we just going in circles.. point is, we NEED to start using alternative fuels because we dont have the choice

 

[katie tully]

its not all about the depletion of oil for use as a fuel, what about the use of ethylene as a foodstock for all other products made from crude oil... What are they gonna be made out of after oil is gone? oh yeh, u can get ethylene by dehydrating ethanol which will work, but wait, are we just going in circles.. point is, we NEED to start using alternative fuels because we dont have the choice

And if you read the rest of the thread, you would have seen it discussed that everybody agrees with the use of alternative fuels, but ethanol as a substitute for the oil crisis is not a viable venture for many reasons.

 

[staticsiscool]

Yeah, you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I'll consult the Department of Primary Industries for you:

"Like most Australian soils, North Coast soils are naturally low in phosphorus due to extensive weathering. While native plants are adapted to these low levels, introduced crops and pasture grasses are not, which means you need to apply phosphorus fertilisers to soil to achieve productive yields. Australian farmers use much more phosphorus than nitrogen and potassium compared with farmers in Europe and USA.

Phosphorus fertilisers are available in several forms, all based on rock phosphate."

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/resources/soils/improvement/phosphorous



Once again: the Haber process doesn't produce phosphorus. But you need phosphorus in your fertilisers or your crop yield will be horrible (if they even grow to begin with). It doesn't matter how much nitrogen you produce, your crops are still doomed without phosphorus.

Now, I'm going to ask you to do some fucking research before your next reply, OK? Start here:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/33164
http://phosphorusfutures.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29
http://www1.fipr.state.fl.us/PhosphatePrimer
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/283/5410/2015

I don't need to do research because i have experience in growing the cropzors. The dpi are retards who are still going off the century old idea of adding superphosphate fertilisers to everything to increase yield.

http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/2001/2/c/norrish.htm

Proves you know nothing about it. phosphorus uptake @80cm depth is the only correlation between phosphorus amounts & yield.

LOL @ dpi "Phosphorus fertilisers are available in several forms, all based on rock phosphate." Yeah, no. Seaweed based fertilisers perhaps? Containing phosphorus? Weird.

Liek i said dude, come back when you have experience in the field of growing crops. Cos like its funny how you say that crops wont crow without copious amounts of superphosphates spread over them but like we have never done that and like the crops grow? Cos like you have no idea what you are talking about.


Edit: For a raging retarded hippy you dont know much about other than what the dpi tell you it seems?

 

[Graney]

Liek i said dude, come back when you have experience in the field of growing crops. Cos like its funny how you say that crops wont crow without copious amounts of superphosphates spread over them but like we have never done that and like the crops grow?

Just because you have grown crops without phosphate based fertiliser, doesn't mean everyone has soils as nutrient rich as yourself.

"Quite simply, without phosphorus we cannot produce food," says Dana Cordell of the Institute of Sustainable Futures, based in Sydney.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23360117-27703,00.html

Peak phosphate denial is incredibly retarded. Please come back with a single reliable source from a prominent scientist explaining how peak phosphate does not exist.

 

[staticsiscool]

They aren't nutrient rich they are poor. yeah i fucked up with my argument against peak phosphate.

Edit: but that was because i dont believe adding phosphate fertilisers is essential.

 

[Graney]

Edit: but that was because i dont believe adding phosphate fertilisers is essential.

Is to meet current demand for world food supply.

 

[aimhigh10]

for and against biofuels?

any points?

 

[bshoc]

Stop whining everyone, solution found

Ford Nucleon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[aimhigh10]

Stop whining everyone, solution found

Ford Nucleon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

lol

 

[bell531]

Did you see the bit about Brazil wiping out 7 football fields worth of Amazon a minute?

WHAT??? That's some mighty fine enviro-raping. When will this heinous, unchecked destruction of our world stop?