Does God exist? (5 Viewers)

[davin]

well agnosticisim does not seem like a religion. more a school of thought


Are you saying that science then is more reliable? I beg to differ. Scientists are constantly changing there hypothesis as they descover they are wrong however christianity is solid as a rock. It has stayed the same since the begining of time.

Creation and the promise of Jesus right through to Jesus and the promise of salvation. Yesterday today tomorow it is the same God.

As to the finer points of lfe such as the age of the earth etc. Do these points matter. WHen it all boils down to it are these the questions we need to ask? I would have thought the more relevant question was the WHO and not the HOW or WHEN. The Bible tells us that God crreated the world and that is enough for me. It may have taken 7 days or 7 billion years. I dont think it matters.

Where did God come from. I dont know. God is God and he always was

yes, agnosticism would be a philosophy and not a religion, but you didn't even know what it was, it seemed, when you addressed it.

and science, over time, is more reliable because science is a constant attempt to understand the world around us the best we can, and is under constant revision to make it more and more accurate. as we learn more, science adjusts to include it. its constantly being improved upon through the scientific process. the point is to understand thigns the best we can.

with christianity, first of all, it can't have been unchanging since the beginning of time since, for one, christianity has only existed for 2000 years. second, why should i believe something on claims that i can't independently verify when it gets other, simpler questions wrong? if its wrong on things like the age of the earth, then how am i to expect it to be right on things where there is significantly less evidence for, if any. And how can you call it "reliable" when it has an error like that? Thats consistancy that its not changed, but thats in no way an indication of reliabilty.
Now if you can explain how the bible is fully accurate, given its age of the earth, that would clear this matter up.

what about innocent until proven guilty. It is a highly respected text among historians not just christians. It has been supported by many other texts as well. There is bucketloads of evidence if you care to search

um, what ABOUT innocent until proven guilty? thats completely irrelevant. in any form of arguementation, you present a claim and then you have to provide significant proof for that, and not just say "well, prove me wrong now". Unless, of course, you're agreeing that I can, in fact, fly just by flapping my arms up and down.
PARTS of the Bible match up historically, yeah, but that doesn't prove the whole thing is accurate because it doesn't deal with all the innaccuracies or unproven elements in it.

 

[withoutaface]

just because someone knows it doesnt mean they have control. God knows WHAT we will do but he didnt MAKE us do it

God has control.

*points to the plagues

Agnosticisim requires the greatest ammount of faith of all. That God doesnt exist. How could you think that in a world as complex as ours?

Agnosticism isn't atheism, but nice try.

what about innocent until proven guilty. It is a highly respected text among historians not just christians. It has been supported by many other texts as well. There is bucketloads of evidence if you care to search

It's actually the opposite of innocent til proven guilty when we're talking about academic works, and once again proving parts of it being accurate doesn't prove the whole is accurate.

For example:

Some rabbits are white. Unicorns exist.

I can prove the first part, but that doesn't mean that uncorns exist, does it?

 

[Pubert]

well agnosticisim does not seem like a religion. more a school of thought


Are you saying that science then is more reliable? I beg to differ. Scientists are constantly changing there hypothesis as they descover they are wrong however christianity is solid as a rock. It has stayed the same since the begining of time.

Creation and the promise of Jesus right through to Jesus and the promise of salvation. Yesterday today tomorow it is the same God.

As to the finer points of lfe such as the age of the earth etc. Do these points matter. WHen it all boils down to it are these the questions we need to ask? I would have thought the more relevant question was the WHO and not the HOW or WHEN. The Bible tells us that God crreated the world and that is enough for me. It may have taken 7 days or 7 billion years. I dont think it matters.

Where did God come from. I dont know. God is God and he always was

How can you say that christianity has always stayed the same? I can get you two bibles which have different wording in some areas.

 

[ur_inner_child]

How can you say that christianity has always stayed the same? I can get you two bibles which have different wording in some areas.

or how two priests can have opposing ideas when it comes to some of the values of christianity

 

[davin]

all the different sects of christianity, for that matter.

 

[ur_inner_child]

and how certain passages are brushed from attention when new modern tolerances are brought

eg

-whether to kill people who do not follow christianity of that time (yes, they did kill)
-the treatment of women

and currently homosexuality, although not fully changed, is certainly on the table for debate amongst christian leaders.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

this thread keeps on going in circles.

about the matter of believing in several religions. In the end, all religions promote peace, goodwill. u know all that stuff. Your talking as if they give different messages. In a world with different cultures, societies, i actually find it fitting that there are many different religions. Maybe one religion for the world just wouldnt work.

 

[ur_inner_child]

this thread keeps on going in circles.
about the matter of believing in several religions. In the end, all religions promote peace, goodwill. u know all that stuff. Your talking as if they give different messages. In a world with different cultures, societies, i actually find it fitting that there are many different religions. Maybe one religion for the world just wouldnt work.

no this is not entirely true

all religions hope to bring peace and good will but over centuries and even now, there has been varying interpretations, and the intolerance of other religions... crusades, witch hunts, varying punishments for things like stealing, etc. its not misinterpretation, sometimes, considering there are passages where it clearly states to kill, to end a life.

its not fitting, considering its another reason for people to identify themselves as "different" and "superior" than the other.
It's sad but it is human nature.

The world is not as tolerant as we wish it would be.
We should embrace our differences, but we don't.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Well how else are you supposed to have a relligion. Religion is all about faith and believing. What religion has been absolutely 100%proven?

That is exactly the problem with religion.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

on the sun it was merely an example.
but you still have faith it will rise. faith through knowlege. the bible like your scientists tells me that God exists. I believe it like you believe them. And i trust it like you trust them.
Thats faith
Knowing believing and trusting
you understand the conccept

Even completely ignoring the fact that we have scientific knowledge and observations of the sun, that is not faith, it is called inductive reasoning.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

its not a problem , its a challenge.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

its not a problem , its a challenge.

I challenge you to believe that invisible aliens live among us. You have no evidence of this, but that's the challenge!

 

[volition]

just because someone knows it doesnt mean they have control. God knows WHAT we will do but he didnt MAKE us do it

You've misunderstood. If you accept that God is omniscient and created the world (which you did), then AT THE VERY INSTANT that he created the world, he would know what would happen(in the future) AS he DID IT. eg. When I push buttons on my keyboard I am aware that it is causing the text to appear on the screen. Now, what I'm presenting to you here is just an extension of that, it happens on a much higher level and with many more 'flow on effects', but if God is truly omniscient, he knew about all of it.

So, either he did it knowing everything that would happen (therefore we have no free will) OR he did it without complete knowledge of what would happen (therefore he is not omniscient) So, which will it be? God's omniscience or your free will?

By the way, I'd just like to point out here that not all Christians believe in both free will and God's omniscience, and they just concede one of these two things. Seeing as I have just pointed out the contradiction between these two beliefs, I'd like you to now decide which one is the 'true one' and tell me why you think so.

and what is wrong with intelligent design?? Designer = God

Well, there's one of the flaws in your argument there. Who says there's only ONE god? Who says that god is the exact same Christian god? Proponents of Intelligent Design(Most of them anyway) like to go along with the analogy that they're walking along the beach and they find a watch. WOW! this watch must mean that there is a watchmaker! Well, here's another point of view. Let's say this observer looks off to the side of the beach and sees a nuclear reactor. WOAH! This nuclear reactor must also have a creator. But hang on, who says that it was all the same creator (who made the nuclear reactor and the watch)?? So, I invite you to prove to me that intelligent design proves that there is only ONE god(rather than many) and that god is the same as the 'christian' god.

Now, one of the ideas behind ID is that 'everything must have a cause', but then ID contradicts itself by trying to make out like "god doesn't have a cause, he just exists". Doesn't make much sense to me really, if you're prepared to accept that God doesn't need a cause, then why must the universe have a designer? So, in addition to proving to me that ID shows how there is only one God(rather than many) and that it is the 'christian' god, I'd like you to also tell me why the universe needs a designer in the first place if god doesn't need one.

Are you saying that science then is more reliable? I beg to differ. Scientists are constantly changing there hypothesis as they descover they are wrong however christianity is solid as a rock. It has stayed the same since the begining of time.

See that's another thing, at least with science, the theory is changed to suit the evidence available. With Intelligent Design, it's like you try to fit the evidence to suit the theory. You're more than happy to accept evidence FOR it, but you aren't happy to accept evidence against it. I think it's really quite obvious why this is, it's because you can't afford to change your position of 'believing in God', while on the other hand, true science will accept the evidence against and there will be debate while they may not have all the answers, but at least they don't claim to.

But anyway, changing the evidence to suit the theory would certainly go a long way towards staying 'solid as a rock', too bad staying that way just slows progress. eg. methods of contraception being prohibited

 

[SashatheMan]

i havea good question.


What are the characterists of god. how do u picture god? if you were to go to heaven and stand infront of god, how do u think he would loook like?

i would have to say atleast the christian god, would look like this.

Picc of god

 

[HotShot]

i havea good question.
What are the characterists of god. how do u picture god? if you were to go to heaven and stand infront of god, how do u think he would loook like?
i would have to say atleast the christian god, would look like this.
Picc of god

you cannot see god!, why do you want a picture of him, so you can jack off in front of him.

Well, we dont know what god knows, if we did then he would exist. but we dont and he doesnt exist. if he did exist, trust we will know!

 

[davin]

you cannot see god!, why do you want a picture of him, so you can jack off in front of him.

Well, we dont know what god knows, if we did then he would exist. but we dont and he doesnt exist. if he did exist, trust we will know!

who says something has to actually exist physically to know what it looksl ike?

i know what darth vader looks like but he ain't real. all that is required is tht the concept exists, and the concept of God does, so its possible to have an appearance to go with. the question of accuracy ignored.

 

[BradCube]

i meant to mention taht restriction only in that you feel that restriction should apply to my arguement.

to use occim's razor on the whole concept for a moment (the idea that the simplest explanation, thats not adding in new concepts and such, is often the right one)
first, there are two possibilities... one is that nothing can have always existed and must have come from soemthing, and the other is that it is possible for something to have always existed.

in the first case, then, something must've started the universe. now, this is where you introduce the concept of god, but then, what started god? and here we enter a loop of higher and higher levels of creators and there is no simple "God".

in the second case, then the universe existed forever, and there's no need to add a "God" concept into the mix. Its an unneccesary complexity.
\
Pascal's wager, the idea that it is better to believe in God, because if you're right, you win, and if you're wrong, there's not much of a cost in just beleiveing in something, while an arguement for why to be religious in the sense that you can hedge your bets, is not an arguement that there is a God directly

Hi all, I am bringing in this convo from the "Sex Before Marriage" thread that I created in love and relationships. It got slightly (well very) off topic, and became far more appropriate for this thread. So here we are, let me continue.

Before I start though would just like to thank the majority of you for being able to conduct yourself in a composed manner. It makes it so much better for having an intelligent discussion such as this. I have not been able to think this deeply for quite some time .

In response davin, you pointed out two possibilities. On one hand we have a situation in which the theory of creation cancels itself out. (ie where did creator come from?) and on the other hand we have the possibility that there is an absolute existance.

You say this is the universe, but I fail to understand how it could exclude the possibility of God. Is it not possible for the absolute existance to be God? I mean surely it is an equally plausible argument. To say that God is an "unneccesary complexity" is rediculous. If it is just as plausible then it is just as neccesary to look at that point of view. I fail to see how believing that an absolute existance that is God is more complex than believing a universe can create itself. By doing that you are effectively placing the universe in the position of God.

We end up coming to a point where our own knowledge will do us no good. What do we even know of knowledge? If there is the possibility of God then surley we will not have the same knowledge as he does. How can we even begin to explain absolute existance if we are created beings?

The fact alone that it is so far beyond our comprehension suggests to me that there is a higher existance.

Pascal's Wager is not proof of God's existance but rather a reason to consider him from an unbiased point of view. It is a reason to consider him equally. Do not try and reason out God because you don't want him to exist.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

I challenge you to believe that invisible aliens live among us. You have no evidence of this, but that's the challenge!

its not a problem because i think theres no evidence for a reason. There is no reason for me to believe that invisible aliens live among us. Sometimes people need a God.

Having no evidence of aliens does make it a challenge to believe in those as well. Same principles.
Do Aliens exist?

However in God i see clear reasons why there would be no evidence, eg meaning of life, test of faith.

The truth is out there.
God is a mystery and of coarse its difficult for everyone to believe, its a challenge, but this shouldnt stop us from believing.
I dont want any evidence for God , i never will. That proves lack of faith.

 

[BradCube]

or how two priests can have opposing ideas when it comes to some of the values of christianity

What a fantastic point. But you know, I think the answer is simple.

Some priest's will preach what the bible actually teaches, and others will modify it for their own benifit. It is that simple.

You mentioned homosexuality and it is a great example. It is mentioned a few times clearly throughout the Bible (in both new and old testament). The fact is, the bible says it wrong. It is that clear, there is no question. But as you know people change things to suit themselves. This does not change, what the bible says though.

You can bet that if God does exist each man and woman (including priests) will be judged.

 

[BradCube]

its not a problem because i think theres no evidence for a reason. There is no reason for me to believe that invisible aliens live among us. Sometimes people need a God.

Having no evidence of aliens does make it a challenge to believe in those as well. Same principles.
Do Aliens exist?

However in God i see clear reasons why there would be no evidence, eg meaning of life, test of faith.

The truth is out there.
God is a mystery and of coarse its difficult for everyone to believe, its a challenge, but this shouldnt stop us from believing.
I dont want any evidence for God , i never will. That proves lack of faith.

I fail to see in anyway how there is no evidence of a God. To me it seems that there is equal evidence.

I don't see how you not wanting evidence means you have no faith, if anything it only shows you don't want to believe there is a God and instead would choose to ignore the possibility.