Does God exist? (4 Viewers)

Geezer28 · Feb 23, 2007

People who believe in God are normally weak minded or have been forced upon as a child thus not being able to remove it from the mind.

Not I. I was born a Catholic, but have attended Lutheran, Anglican and United schools. My father is what you'd call less than Christian, but my mother wanted me to have a private school education. In my later teen years, I have been to Baptist, AOG, and Catholic services, and enjoy them all for their own unique merits. I made and make my own decisions.

Tell me if God is perfect why does he allow the creation of the imperfect or such human beings that are evil minded, thus leading to their fate in eternal hell? If God can foresee the future of these people why create them in the first place? Why create a suffering human that will go to hell? It can be compared to a father having a child for the purpose of beating him up until he dies.

This is true in some respects, although God is technically not the one doing "the beating". While it is true he knew the child would have an existance filled with pain and suffering, this world is not perfect. He did not create Earth as a perfect world. And the argument of "If he's perfect, why did he make suffering?", is countered by the following argument: God wanted humans to have a choice. Otherwise, it's like saying to your kid "Love Me!"
The love of one being, to love someone so much to ALLOW them that choice, proves the perfectness of God. Do you think he's happy that people chose an existance that they are doomed into? Of course not! But the love he showed in giving human beings that choice, is, in my opinion, astronomical. Ever heard the saying "If you love something, let it go - if it comes back, it was always meant to be yours?" He loved enough to let us go, and make the choice of whether to come back and love Him, or to chose their own existance.

And why did God create the universe? Was he just bored and one day decided to create the universe for the sake of it?

The Universe was created, Christianity explains, as an outlet for the love of God. This can not be proved or disproved, as with the entire argument: It is a matter for belief.

Realistically is Jesus the son of God? Or was he just a crazy man who thought he was the son of God? Why is it that Jesus suddenly claimed to be the son of God when he was an adult and not a child? If some dude popped out of nowhere today and claimed to be the son/daughter of God would you think this person is a nutcase? I think so... I mean those people are normally the idiots that commit pedophilia, "Ohh God has umm... told me... that you will be the savior of me so suck me off now".

Dude, almost everybody in Jesus' time thought he was a nutcase. That's why he got crucified. He performed miracles to prove his Messiahness, along with incredible teachings that can be found in the Gospels. Also, if you took the time to actually read the Bible for a little while, you'd see that in the Old Testament, things were prophesised about the coming of the Messiah that came true in Jesus. See this website: http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

Doesn't the discovery of dinosaurs/evolution render the existence of God? Oh yeah I forgot... this new bullshit "Intelligent design" concept tells how God created the Big Bang and caused evolution... oh right in the 20th century God came back down to Earth and told the people "Sorry for not showing up in 2000 years but I'd like to inform you all that I created the big bang" then he suddenly pops back into the universal plains right? Oh wait no... God didn't do that because he doesn't exist, it must be the humans on Earth that are making the decisions for God...

People will believe, what people will believe. I believe that the Bible's explanation for the earth being created in seven days, is wrong. However I believe that the Bible was not created for a literal scientific purpose to describe "how", rather, to describe "why". That, plus during the 7 days of creation written about in Genesis, the concept of "days" or even "time" did not exist, so 7 days could have been millions of years. The Intelligent Design theory is a way people have tried to comprehend the reasoning of God, but, nobody is saying with logical reasoning that it is true or not. It is just a theory. Chose to believe it, or parts of it, or make your own beliefs, or don't. Simple. But don't take away somebody elses faith because of your own opinions.

If God created Earth, why are there religions and beliefs that were created before the existence of the concept of a God? Did God create Asians and Black people for the sake of sending them to hell? Let's face it, Christianity is only big because of the European sea navigation power, brainwashing all the cultures they colonise.

It is my belief that God wants Christianity spread to all, and the easiest way to do that in the early years of the faith was by finding the way it would catch on the quickest - the greatest Civilization of the time - The Romans. Missionaries have gone out to the Africas and the Orient, and to all parts of the globe since then. It is also my belief that, anybody who has not had the choice laid in front of them, Christianity or not, will not be condemned. That is to say, everybody who existed before the concept of Christianity, in my belief, would not be condemned to the second death (Including newborn babies that die). This is entirely a matter of personal opinion, and I am simply sharing with you my views.

Look, I am happy to let you believe or not believe whatever you want. But don't go criticizing my faith. By all means, question it, but don't start calling it "Bullshit" or any other unintelligent phrase. I will not force anything on you, I'm not a crazy extremist. I'm going to believe what I'll believe, and you can believe what you'll believe. The fact of the matter is, we can argue about whether God exists or not until the end of this Earth, and still get nowhere. The argument will backwards-forwards with the same calls. I have now made my beliefs, and I am glad to let you make yours. The argument is truly a case for faith; nothing more, nothing less.

webby234 · Feb 23, 2007

Geezer28 said:
Not I. I was born a Catholic, but have attended Lutheran, Anglican and United schools. My father is what you'd call less than Christian, but my mother wanted me to have a private school education. In my later teen years, I have been to Baptist, AOG, and Catholic services, and enjoy them all for their own unique merits. I made and make my own decisions.

You still believed in God, so that isn't a valid response to his argument.

God wanted humans to have a choice. Otherwise, it's like saying to your kid "Love Me!"

Paradox: Choice can not exist with an all-knowing entity - because God has to know what we would do before we do it.

As for love, aren't you doing what you say we do in implanting human qualities on something that you say is above human understanding.

Dude, almost everybody in Jesus' time thought he was a nutcase. That's why he got crucified. He performed miracles to prove his Messiahness, along with incredible teachings that can be found in the Gospels. Also, if you took the time to actually read the Bible for a little while, you'd see that in the Old Testament, things were prophesised about the coming of the Messiah that came true in Jesus. See this website: http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm

And why isn't it possible that when the stories of the gospel were written (as they were at least 60-70 years after the time of Jesus' birth) the authors, having read the previous books of the bible didn't add them to make them fit, or because they then supposed that it must have been what happened - ie they simply assumed the prophecies were fufilled?

People will believe, what people will believe. I believe that the Bible's explanation for the earth being created in seven days, is wrong.

So where is original sin? What did Jesus die for? Surely it was then God who created sin.

Geezer28 · Feb 23, 2007

You still believed in God, so that isn't a valid response to his argument.

Who says I ever believed in God as a youngster? Just because you are born into a religion, that does not make you religious. I became a Christian two years ago, when I first attended an AOG Service - nothing to do with how it was "forced" upon me from a school where 90% of the kids were not Christian anyway, and unchristian parents.

Paradox: Choice can not exist with an all-knowing entity - because God has to know what we would do before we do it.

Yup, he knows. But it's not him that made the choice. He made an autonomous being. Although he knew you would do it, that doesn't mean He MADE you do it. He made you able to have the choice. Again, this is debatable and up to personal opinion.

As for love, aren't you doing what you say we do in implanting human qualities on something that you say is above human understanding.

Nope. The Bible says God is love (1 John 4:16). And Hell, do you understand Love? Not a person alive today does.

And why isn't it possible that when the stories of the gospel were written (as they were at least 60-70 years after the time of Jesus' birth) the authors, having read the previous books of the bible didn't add them to make them fit, or because they then supposed that it must have been what happened - ie they simply assumed the prophecies were fufilled?

OF COURSE IT'S POSSIBLE THERE WAS TAMPERING! All that matters is that the Bible states it is the only pure, infallible, and unalterable Word of God. From that, we can assume (if God is real), that whatever is IN the Bible, is what God WANTED to be there. Thus, assuming God is real, Jesus is the Son of God.

So where is original sin? What did Jesus die for? Surely it was then God who created sin.

God created the possibility for man to sin. He did not make man sin. Man had the choice. Man made the choice. Man fucked it, because man is not perfect. There is your original sin. That is what Jesus died for. God did create the possibility for sin - however, he did not commit the sin. He left this in the hands of man.

webby234 · Feb 23, 2007

Geezer28 said:
Who says I ever believed in God as a youngster? Just because you are born into a religion, that does not make you religious. I became a Christian two years ago, when I first attended an AOG Service - nothing to do with how it was "forced" upon me from a school where 90% of the kids were not Christian anyway, and unchristian parents.

OK, point taken, but I'll still maintain it's environmental factors that made you a Christian and that someone who was in the same position in a predominately Muslim country would become a Muslim

Yup, he knows. But it's not him that made the choice. He made an autonomous being. Although he knew you would do it, that doesn't mean He MADE you do it. He made you able to have the choice. Again, this is debatable and up to personal opinion.

OK consider this - when God created us, he could have done so in an infinite number of ways. He chose one of them, knowing the exact consequences of doing so - ie what 'choices' we would make if we were created in that way. If we had been created differently, our actions would be different. Therefore we are not free.

Nope. The Bible says God is love (1 John 4:16). And Hell, do you understand Love? Not a person alive today does.

OF COURSE IT'S POSSIBLE THERE WAS TAMPERING! All that matters is that the Bible states it is the only pure, infallible, and unalterable Word of God. From that, we can assume (if God is real), that whatever is IN the Bible, is what God WANTED to be there. Thus, assuming God is real, Jesus is the Son of God.

OK, now you're making assumptions - you're saying the bible is true because it says it's true?

Then you assume God exists in an effort to prove Christianity. (If you were actually arguing that Christianity rather than other religions are true, how do you explain the existence and assertion of other religions' books?)

Neither of them work as logical arguments.

God created the possibility for man to sin. He did not make man sin. Man had the choice. Man made the choice. Man fucked it, because man is not perfect. There is your original sin. That is what Jesus died for. God did create the possibility for sin - however, he did not commit the sin. He left this in the hands of man.

Apart from what i've said earlier about choice, I'd be interested to hear how you define sin. Do animals sin? Where in evolution do sin and the soul come in?

Oh and whoever said that the Big Bang and God aren't incompatible - http://www.qsmithwmu.com/a_big_bang_cosmological_argument_for_god's_nonexistence_(1992).htm
It's old, but hasn't been refuted. It certainly makes fun of the design arguments

. In other words the more improbable the universe is, the less chance there is that god exists.

withoutaface · Feb 23, 2007

Geezer28 said:
Yup, he knows. But it's not him that made the choice. He made an autonomous being. Although he knew you would do it, that doesn't mean He MADE you do it. He made you able to have the choice. Again, this is debatable and up to personal opinion.

He made you in a certain way, and there is no way that an all knowing being would not know that putting a certain cell in a certain place would lead to a particular outcome. God cannot be both all knowing and wilfully blind to such things.

KFunk · Feb 23, 2007

bshoc said:
If we are imperfect, then our logic, must also be imperfect.

While it is possible that you have left out some steps in this argument I find that I have to disagree with you. To my mind what you have said is akin to the following:

"If a Ming vase is not flawless then it must have a large crack down the side."

Analysing the above statement we can easily determine that it is not a reasonable assertion - via providing counter examples. One such example is that the vase might lack such a large crack but have a small chip taken out of its base, rendering it 'not flawless'. Following this line of reasoning, coming up with other things which may cause the vase to be flawed, one can see that there are a great number of ways in which a Ming vase may be flawed (i.e. 'not flawless') which do not require it to have a large crack down its side.

Similarly, there are many ways in which we may be imperfect which do not require our logic to be imperfect. For example, we may be sadistic, or mortal (genesis etc.), or we may be cursed to carry a debilitating disease. All the aforementioned maladies appear to be able to coexist with a sense of logic that is without flaw (excluding, of course, diseases which affect reason and the like).

Essentially what I am arguing is that imperfection does not entail imperfection in every sense. It is possible for us to be flawed whilst still retaining perfect logic. Of course, I certainly do not claim to have demonstrated that we possess perfect logic, only that your argument does not deny it to us.

dilroy · Feb 23, 2007

As humans become more intelligent and as China and India become more powerful, I'm sure the belief in God will change. We live in the 21st century, this should be a time of prosperity, a time of greater knowledge about the universe and our creation, it should be about unity and equality for all. The use of prayer has become obsolete and religion altogether is long overdue.

It is merely a psychological effect on one's state of mind, one who cannot handle the thought of the universe still remaining a mystery, one who feels insecure and requires the aid of God.
The Vatican is a great marketing tool, the Polish pope was one of the causes of the Soviet demise. The German? Need I explain? When will there be an African pope? Or a pope of South American/Latino, Asian descent? Oh yeah it's not profitable... oh I mean not good for the image of the Vatican. Why is the pope coming to Australia this year and why is he so eager to make Mary Mackilip a saint? Because Australians are losing faith. Divide and Conquer all!

It's also a good brainwashing tool in the USA, it's a great political tool for exploitation and power. Heck, 45% of America still believe the world was created 10,000 years ago. Bunch of IDIOTS!

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him takes care to chastise him" (Proverbs 13:24 NAB)

"Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." Psalms 137:9 NAB

In that day those the LORD has slaughtered will fill the earth from one end to the other. No one will mourn for them or gather up their bodies to bury them. They will be scattered like dung on the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 NLT)

THE LORD LOVES US ALL!! THE BIBLE IS GREAT!! meh...

noobsgetowned · Feb 26, 2007

The Bible "was" great in its original form. Meh too many changed versions and cant even find a single original copy.

Not-That-Bright · Feb 26, 2007

The Bible "was" great in its original form. Meh too many changed versions and cant even find a single original copy.

How can you say that without knowing it?

ElGronko · Feb 26, 2007

Bshoc, don't you see the inherent flaw of your arguments?

Essentially you keep saying "Humans are imperfect therefore how can you expect them to properly understand or be correct, therefore I am right".

The Brucemaster · Feb 26, 2007

Geezer, if God created autonomous beings, giving us choice, then he is not omnipotent.

If God is omniscient then he would have known that Eve was going to eat the apple and thus create original sin, thus God is in fact more morally culpable than Eve is for all sin (assuming of course that God a) exists and b) is omnisicient and omnipotent).

You also say that what's written in the Bible should be accepted as true because "God wanted it there..."
If this is the case, however, then you are acknowledging that God has a direct influence over human behaviour despite earlier saying that God created us as autonomous beings with the ability to choose. One of these must be false and thus, either way, the Bible is innacurate.

erin_tonkin · Feb 28, 2007

God created all things, he also created us with the choice to follow him or not ie. obeying his order, his only order not to eat the fruit (the adam and eve story) this is commonly known as sin nowerdays, turning away from God.

Now i want you to, just for a minute imagine that God does exist. Someone who can create, can know, can control. Such a being would have to be so different from everything we know. This being couldnt have the same ears as they would always be full of noise, they couldnt have the same eyes as they would not know what to focus on. This being could not have any concept of time, in fact this being would have to be completely outside of time in order to control it.

God sees this earth and sees our actions of turning away. He doesnt neccesarily see little events, he doesnt make us do things but he is just a prescence that is always there and always in control.

The Bible is Gods way of revealing himself to people on earth. He used many people to do this, eventually his own son and also many prophets and diciples. He could influence this yet if you read the bible you will see that it was still the peoples choice to follow. Read the story of Jonah for example.

This God is outside of all that we know. He is everywhere all at once and also has the control to do whatever he wants. THe thing is, He gives us the choice whether to let him do what he wants with our life... this is the idea of the Holy Spirit.

I think the point is that he CAN do what he wants.. except that would just make us live like robots.. our love for God would come from nothing but a programed response. God is omnipotent but he is also loving. He gives us every opportunity to aknowledge him, yet doesnt push the matter.

Not-That-Bright · Feb 28, 2007

I was going to attempt to properly refute your claims, until I realised they're all just empty claims without even a hint of a real attempt to back them up, so I just did this:

God created all things, he also created us with the choice to follow him or not ie. obeying his order, his only order not to eat the fruit (the adam and eve story) this is commonly known as sin nowerdays, turning away from God.