Does God exist? (22 Viewers)

[KFunk]

I think God is on the side of the poor though, there are a lot of verses in the bible about it. But the bible makes clear that God did hold the wealthy to account to the way they treated the poor in the old testement. I suppose on a conceptual level the reason strict rawlsianism isn't necesary is that God answering one persons prayers would detract from his ability to amswer other prayers if I can put it that way...

I wouldn't take a marco view of poverty as firm evidence against what I wrote earlier with regard to the figures stated yes they are large numbers, but by getting the food, drugs and aid into those countries, we can lift a lot of people out of poverty. And compared to 10-11 years ago the general attitude of the powerbrokers with regards aid is changing, for all of its contraversies the bush administration has increased aid 4 fold during its time. Although more needs to be done still...

Two things:

(1) Bible verses don't really stand up against the actual state of the world. What is in question here is, partly, what is claimed in the bible regarding god (or perhaps what people think is claimed). Therefore you can't really turn to the bible to make your case without begging the question. As I have argued, the state of the world does not seem consistent with the existence of a god who is a) benevolent and b) intervenes with miracles on the behalf of the poor. And sure, I agree that omnipotence would allow god to answer as many prayers as necessary but, as I will argue below, this does not appear to be happening.

(2) The difficulty for you is that god always exists, is perhaps a necessary existant, and has unlimited power/knowledge/wisdom/etc. Thus it is enough to show that things are (unnecessarily) worse for the poor at one time rather than another in order to falsify the idea of a (benevolent) god who intervenes on the behalf of the destitute. You really have to make your claims across all times if you want to guard yourself from such objections. Certainly, it appears as though some progress may come in the future (with respect to poverty, diseases, etc... though I'm not super optimistic) but it is still the case that things have been terrible for certain populations around the world (and indeed, continue to be for others). You can't avoid these problems by simply claiming 'things are getting better' because god, if existant, exists at all times and with the capacity to intervene for the better (that is, if god is a miracle giver). Unless you can prove that this is the best of all possible worlds (good luck) then either a) god does not perform miracles or b) god's moral sense strikes me, personally, as questionable.

 

[boris]

Hahaha. What @ this response.
I can't tell who is a troll anymore and who is just plain stoopid.

what about the question of existence? Why am I here, what am I doing and where the hell is this place we've come to call the universe.

Did the big bang think up the idea of time and space?

Does evolution mind if I go and kill myself?

Did the big bang plan on me sitting here at a computer wondering about the origin of the world?

If there is no god, then there is no meaning, there is no right or wrong...

I dont think there is a god, I do think there is a creator, this place is perfectly absurd, and ultimately beyond our comprehension.

But wait, I can see the evil in the world....

even so, its all in your head, and your head only.

1. Why did Newton want to see what happens when he dropped a ball? Why did Pasteur want to disprove the theory of spontaneous generation? Why do we exist? Humans ask these questions because for some reason we have this inherent need to know why. Why this. What that. If X happens, why did it happen?
Nobody is content with the idea that we exist purely because we exist.

2. Time and space aren't an idea. I'm confused as to what you're asking/trying to imply. Did GOD think up the idea of time and space?

3. Evolution doesn't care if you kill yourself. It's called natural selection.

4. You're trying to give Big Bang people qualities. Big Bang was an event, stop referring to it as a person.

5. Why does there need to be a God for there to be right and wrong and meaning? Are we that useless of a species we cannot determine for ourselves what is right and what is wrong?

6.

 

[oswald]

Your own argument means the creator MUST have a beginning and an end.

You say the complexity of the universe means there must be a creator.

But any being capable of creating the universe must be many times more complex than its creation.

So the creator must have its own creator.

nah i dont get that, you'll have to explain.

I'd say the problem is we're all trying to disprove each other, if you were genuinly trying to find answers you might work a few things out for yourself. Otherwise we're all just kids fighting.

but yeah why does the creator have to have a creator?

why is it that we leave our bodies here when we die, perhaps our bodies couldn't even exist outside this existance. Think of everything we know, the universe and everything inside it, as if it was all inside a box. a box that contains itself or something like that. What is outside that box? what else exists? how does it exist and what form does it take.

Have you ever tried to think up a world completely different to our own.

even this very discussion is a concept inside THIS box.

space allows my body to walk accross the room, and time makes it seam a little slow. how do we know any of these things exist outside this box, considering we leave our bodies here once we die.'


I DON"T KNOW BUT ITS CRAZY. swallow your pride when you answer this.
who says the creator has to be this biblical figure. even the whole idea of the bible is great, but he figured it all out. what's the meaning behind it all? did he get a little bored with nothing? they say he wants a loving relationship with us, but he thought up the idea of love, he made it so our brains enjoyed the feeling of love.

geeeeeeeeeeezuss.

 

[boris]

but yeah why does the creator have to have a creator?

Why does there have to be a creator?

why is it that we leave our bodies here when we die, perhaps our bodies couldn't even exist outside this existance. Think of everything we know, the universe and everything inside it, as if it was all inside a box. a box that contains itself or something like that. What is outside that box? what else exists? how does it exist and what form does it take.

Decomposition. Have a read.

who says the creator has to be this biblical figure. even the whole idea of the bible is great, but he figured it all out. what's the meaning behind it all? did he get a little bored with nothing? they say he wants a loving relationship with us, but he thought up the idea of love, he made it so our brains enjoyed the feeling of love.

Who says there has to be a creator. Why isn't it feasible to believe there is no creator?

 

[oswald]

nah i dont get that, you'll have to explain.

I'd say the problem is we're all trying to disprove each other, if you were genuinly trying to find answers you might work a few things out for yourself. Otherwise we're all just kids fighting.

Well mate just as you are pretty confident in your opinion, the next person is just the same. So it is all opinion and just as someone else said we're back where we started.

Both religion and science take faith, neither one can disprove one another.

Isn't it perfect?

 

[boris]

What.

 

[Gay Captain]

Both religion and science take faith, neither one can disprove one another.

Isn't it perfect?

No, that's not true

 

[oswald]

I tend to think there has to be some sort of origin of the world because time itself suggests a begginning, middle and... end.

Unless time itself evolved out of nothing along with everything else we're talking about. then i tend to beleive in some sort of intelligent design.

just as you can't point out evolution, I can't point out a creator.

but anyway we're here so lets party.

 

[oswald]

but anyway we're here so lets party.

Well thats true, unless you want to get somewhere in which case you'll have to work really hard, work unquestionally if you want to do it.

there is a million outcomes from a million questions that all branch out in to more questions, and they all feed themselves.

its a looop, take some acid and try thinking about it.

(evolution "means" we're meaningless, not even as much as an accident but a phenomena that only we can label)

 

[boris]

What is he doing?
Does he have a split personality disorder?

 

[oswald]

try questioning yourself once in a while smart one, sorta counteracts a biased opinion.

 

[boris]

try questioning yourself once in a while smart one, sorta counteracts a biased opinion.

Sort demonstrates crazy.

 

[oswald]

yeah, i mean what about those dinasours? and carbon dating....

whats religion got.... that jesus guy, all that historic stuff?

nup, i dunno?

 

[oswald]

yeah i thought that was pretty rude too.

all that compelling argument gone.

 

[HalcyonSky]

lolswald, religion has nothing on science.

thus faith

 

[surjulz]

Two things:

(1) Bible verses don't really stand up against the actual state of the world. What is in question here is, partly, what is claimed in the bible regarding god (or perhaps what people think is claimed). Therefore you can't really turn to the bible to make your case without begging the question. As I have argued, the state of the world does not seem consistent with the existence of a god who is a) benevolent and b) intervenes with miracles on the behalf of the poor. And sure, I agree that omnipotence would allow god to answer as many prayers as necessary but, as I will argue below, this does not appear to be happening.

(2) The difficulty for you is that god always exists, is perhaps a necessary existant, and has unlimited power/knowledge/wisdom/etc. Thus it is enough to show that things are (unnecessarily) worse for the poor at one time rather than another in order to falsify the idea of a (benevolent) god who intervenes on the behalf of the destitute. You really have to make your claims across all times if you want to guard yourself from such objections. Certainly, it appears as though some progress may come in the future (with respect to poverty, diseases, etc... though I'm not super optimistic) but it is still the case that things have been terrible for certain populations around the world (and indeed, continue to be for others). You can't avoid these problems by simply claiming 'things are getting better' because god, if existant, exists at all times and with the capacity to intervene for the better (that is, if god is a miracle giver). Unless you can prove that this is the best of all possible worlds (good luck) then either a) god does not perform miracles or b) god's moral sense strikes me, personally, as questionable.

The reason I quote the bible is that I think it describes God, I don't expect everyone to agree with this though.

From what I gather from your post you are saying that for God to be perfectly benevolent, the state of the world would have to be one without suffering for all time periods and for everyone. Otherwise this would show God to be less then perfectly benevolent, or less then perfectly omniscient. I agree this is not the case.

I don't think God is perfectly benevolent, and does judge people for what they do etc. So the question becomes God's moral character/power becomes the issue here, you said earlier in effect, you would not worship a God who isn't benevolent. Is this what you are saying? If so, why do you take this position?

 

[Gay Captain]

there is substancial evidence that god dose in fact exist

go on

 

[boris]

where in the Bible does it tell us about all of those?

 

[boris]

not the bible the quran

*facepalms*

 

[oswald]

I'd say even if the bible isn't all its cracked up to be, its still the one peice of philosophy that i'd agree with. It speaks truth.

It kinda scares me that science might one day come up with answer for everything.

I always thought that so long as we are alive, we will never be sure of anything.

The only people to have known answers are now no longer with us.

therefore i'm sticking to the idea of knowledge and belief being two different things.

Who knows we could be in the matrix? how do you know we didn't pop into existance three seconds ago with a whole life of memory in your head.

the mere fact that im here suggests anything is possible.

or does it? I DON"T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! WhERE AM I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
WhATS GOING ON!!!!!!!!!!! WHYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mmmmmmmmm fun.

gotta love that electricity bubbling in my head.



oh and evolution is a theory you know? i think you guys have a little too much faith in science.