Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[acmilan]

I think you guys completely missed the point of my post.

What I was SAYING was that many (NOT ALL, but many) Christians seek to discredit atheists like my self by belittling our way of dismissing religion - by saying it isn't possible for us to definantly know that there aren't gods, because we haven't examined the breadth of the universe.

However, they seem to conveniently forget the fact that THEY haven't examined the entire universe, either - how can they be so sure that God exists? How can they be so sure that they are wrong, and we are right: that there IS NO GOD, and 'He' simply exists as a figment of human imagination, an incarnation of our fear of being alone in a universe where we are insignificant?

Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation if often correct. In this case, rather than believe the invention of man's mind, the simplest explanation is this: that there is no God.

I wasnt saying you specifically, i was simply making the point that many people read things like that and then pronounce it as a unified christian worldview. Im sorry if what i said seemed to be directed to you.

 

[Kwayera]

I wasnt saying you specifically, i was simply making the point that many people read things like that and then pronounce it as a unified christian worldview. Im sorry if what i said seemed to be directed to you.

That's alright - I'm used to it.

However, are you going to answer my question?

 

[acmilan]

To answer your question, we cant, if we could then this discussion wont be happening. That's why i dont agree with some people/denominations that try to push beliefs that only following God and Jesus will save you, when really i believe that good will and moral behaviour is what is required, as well as acceptance of other people's beliefs. Jesus himself said that at the time of judgement God will question you on the useless things you did in life, not the good things you did. He wont say you're going straight to hell because you are not a believer

 

[Kwayera]

Really? It was my understanding - from what they teach us of the Bible at school - that non-believers have 'rejected God's grace' and thus will go to hell.

But yes, you can't.

 

[lukebennett]

I think you guys completely missed the point of my post.

What I was SAYING was that many (NOT ALL, but many) Christians seek to discredit atheists like my self by belittling our way of dismissing religion - by saying it isn't possible for us to definantly know that there aren't gods, because we haven't examined the breadth of the universe.

However, they seem to conveniently forget the fact that THEY haven't examined the entire universe, either - how can they be so sure that God exists? How can they be so sure that they are wrong, and we are right: that there IS NO GOD, and 'He' simply exists as a figment of human imagination, an incarnation of our fear of being alone in a universe where we are insignificant?

Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation if often correct. In this case, rather than believe the invention of man's mind, the simplest explanation is this: that there is no God.

i know. alot of christians do feel the need to preech at people and make everyone know they think they are right. this is true of everyone cause they like to think that what tey believe is right. im a christian and i know god exists. i just can prove it to other people but you know it so strongly deep down. its hard to explain and for that reason i cant tell anyone i am right cause i cant prove it. you'd only understand it if you were in the position of a christian.

but even though i am a christian i can still take on board what other people say and i still think that the whole theory of evolution thing can still work with the bible. its just the religious culture of christianity that is so proud and doesnt think we could come from an animal. who says evolution wasnt what god used to create us.

its easy enough for you to say that god doesnt exist and its easy enough for me to say he does. we both have to live in each others shoes before we can say that each other is wrong.

 

[acmilan]

Well what is hell anyway to a non-believer? It is a place where you are absent from God's presence. If it is true that all non-believers go to hell and if you dont believe in God, does going to a place where God doesnt exist seem so bad?

 

[lukebennett]

To answer your question, we cant, if we could then this discussion wont be happening. That's why i dont agree with some people/denominations that try to push beliefs that only following God and Jesus will save you, when really i believe that good will and moral behaviour is what is required, as well as acceptance of other people's beliefs. Jesus himself said that at the time of judgement God will question you on the useless things you did in life, not the good things you did. He wont say you're going straight to hell because you are not a believer

which bible have you been reading? you have to accept god and that jesus died and is the saviour to go to heaven. if you dont go to heaven you go to hell.

 

[lukebennett]

Well what is hell anyway to a non-believer? It is a place where you are absent from God's presence. If it is true that all non-believers go to hell and if you dont believe in God, does going to a place where God doesnt exist seem so bad?

maybe you should check what hell actually is in the bible. well thats assuming they believe god exists. if this is what they believe to be not having god here now, what would it be like when there really is no god?

youre almost saying that if you dont think there is a god there isnt and if you think there is there is. there either is or isnt

 

[acmilan]

which bible have you been reading? you have to accept god and that jesus died and is the saviour to go to heaven. if you dont go to heaven you go to hell.

Arrg i had the quote before on my computer but deleted it ill look through it, im sure it was in Matthew. But then by your logic Jews are condemned to hell despite God saying that they are his chosen people?

 

[lukebennett]

Arrg i had the quote before on my computer but deleted it ill look through it, im sure it was in Matthew. But then by your logic Jews are condemned to hell despite God saying that they are his chosen people?

yeah but that was the old testament. things changed after jesus died. "i am the way the truth and the life. no one can get to the father except through me". thats one of the fundamentals. chosen people doesnt mean they have to go to heaven by christianity. they havent accepted jesus as their saviour. they are still waiting for their saviour

 

[acmilan]

"You can be sure that on the Day of Judgment you will have to give account of every useless word you have ever spoken. Your words will be used to judge you - to declare you either innocent or guilty" - Jesus said this himself in Matthew

 

[lukebennett]

"You can be sure that on the Day of Judgment you will have to give account of every useless word you have ever spoken. Your words will be used to judge you - to declare you either innocent or guilty" - Jesus said this himself in Matthew

but where does that say that non believers can go to heaven? the key words of accepting jesus might be just slightly crucial in judgement

 

[acmilan]

I am going to quote something that pretty much sums up my stance on what God will do during judgement. Where the other books only tend to say a line or two about judgement, Romans spend almost a chapter on it (which means I cut it down to only include relevant parts).

“For God will reward each of us according to what we have done. Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honour and immortal life; to them God will give eternal life. Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong; on them God will pour out his anger and fury…but God will give glory, honour and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also for the Gentiles. For God judges everyone by the same standards. The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law…the Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their heart. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God through Jesus Christ will judge the secret thought of all.”

This shows that everyone, even those that don’t follow the laws set by God/Jesus/Moses etc can still receive eternal life if their actions imitate it through good works and actions.

If i dont respond to any questions or statements that follow its because im offline and will probably wont be on until tonight

 

[lukebennett]

I am going to quote something that pretty much sums up my stance on what God will do during judgement. Where the other books only tend to say a line or two about judgement, Romans spend almost a chapter on it (which means I cut it down to only include relevant parts).

“For God will reward each of us according to what we have done. Some people keep on doing good, and seek glory, honour and immortal life; to them God will give eternal life. Other people are selfish and reject what is right, in order to follow what is wrong; on them God will pour out his anger and fury…but God will give glory, honour and peace to all who do what is good, to the Jews first and also for the Gentiles. For God judges everyone by the same standards. The Gentiles do not have the Law of Moses; they sin and are lost apart from the Law. The Jews have the Law; they sin and are judged by the Law…the Gentiles do not have the Law; but whenever they do by instinct what the Law commands, they are their own law, even though they do not have the Law. Their conduct shows that what the Law commands is written in their heart. Their consciences also show that this is true, since their thoughts sometimes accuse them and sometimes defend them. And so, according to the Good News I preach, this is how it will be on that Day when God through Jesus Christ will judge the secret thought of all.”

This shows that everyone, even those that don’t follow the laws set by God/Jesus/Moses etc can still receive eternal life if their actions imitate it through good works and actions.

If i dont respond to any questions or statements that follow its because im offline and will probably wont be on until tonight

what you say is true, but not completely. this is for people who do not have the laws to live by, so they have to live by their own laws and conscience. these were people before the times of moses and jesus.
however final judgement rests on two issues. works and faith in christ (rev. 20. 13-15). for us, cause we had jesus moses and god must do both works and have faith also. which comes back to what jesus said : i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.

 

[Keen]

im a christian and i know god exists. i just can prove it to other people but you know it so strongly deep down. its hard to explain and for that reason i cant tell anyone i am right cause i cant prove it. you'd only understand it if you were in the position of a christian.

Actually this isn't a good enough explanation. Scientific studies (New scientist, vol. 170, no. 2287, April 21 (2001) pp. 24-28.) is one that I quite like - even heard christians use this study.
I don't think I can post the article up but you can probably get it from the library or maybe the internet
This study showed that the brain has the ability in a sense to create a religious experience - one neurologist claims that almost anyone "can meet god' by wearing a special helmet. Many studies have been done and quiete conclusively prove that the brain 'generates' religious experiences - although this can either mean that there is a god and he was clever to put something in our brain so we can experience him or our brains are programmed to dilude us. (Christians like to cite the former conclusion and 'forget' the second.
I believe religion is 'programmed' into our heads to make us happier people and to have hope - this does not disprove or prove god. BUT Does add to the argument that religion is a creation of the human brain.

Keen

 

[lukebennett]

Actually this isn't a good enough explanation. Scientific studies (New scientist, vol. 170, no. 2287, April 21 (2001) pp. 24-28.) is one that I quite like - even heard christians use this study.
I don't think I can post the article up but you can probably get it from the library or maybe the internet
This study showed that the brain has the ability in a sense to create a religious experience - one neurologist claims that almost anyone "can meet god' by wearing a special helmet. Many studies have been done and quiete conclusively prove that the brain 'generates' religious experiences - although this can either mean that there is a god and he was clever to put something in our brain so we can experience him or our brains are programmed to dilude us. (Christians like to cite the former conclusion and 'forget' the second.
I believe religion is 'programmed' into our heads to make us happier people and to have hope - this does not disprove or prove god. BUT Does add to the argument that religion is a creation of the human brain.

Keen

well i never said it was an explaination and i know its more than a religious experience cause of the events of my life and my family (whats more i am highly sceptical and cynical and am not into hocus pocus). im sure you are right and that this is very possible (people can listen to music and feel they are having a religious experience) but what i feel deep down is more than a religious experience because it is backed by fact (which i dont feel like sharing over the net to people i dont really know).

it does add to the argument but as you can see i was not trying to prove or disprove i was saying that no one can say what someone feels or believes is right or wrong unless they have experienced their lives

 

[Keen]

Hmn, I understand and I respect that you don't want to sharing your private life on the internet, however, I believe that nearly all 'amazing things' that happen to people can be explained as just normal things (got a high UAI) or psychologically induced (healed because of belief etc).
On the other hand, while I don't believe really in a religion, I believe god has some control and I pray occasionally and believe that he helped me get into medicine, have a great year and pass this year.
Although I am highly cynical of people who think they'll have great lives because they're hard-core christians. If you look at these people (for eg. go to church EVERY sunday, preach to people, live their life by the Bible etc) they generally (~90%) have had an average life, they aren't highly successful, a lot of them are in crappy situations, the thing that probably sets them apart from others is that they're genrally very nice and kind people (which can be explained by psychology of the bible. Once you've chosen to live your life by the book, you'd want to be good and put extra effort so you'll get into heaven etc. So this really isn't 'God induced'.
But I believe in God but I don't really think religion brings something great, I follow a certain religion very very loosely - sort of loosely praying in their manner and believing in being good, kind, nice etc (as all good standing citizens should, not necessarily religious - but religion has a great influence on our laws and our moral reflect these too etc).

Keen

 

[lukebennett]

Hmn, I understand and I respect that you don't want to sharing your private life on the internet, however, I believe that nearly all 'amazing things' that happen to people can be explained as just normal things (got a high UAI) or psychologically induced (healed because of belief etc).
On the other hand, while I don't believe really in a religion, I believe god has some control and I pray occasionally and believe that he helped me get into medicine, have a great year and pass this year.
Although I am highly cynical of people who think they'll have great lives because they're hard-core christians. If you look at these people (for eg. go to church EVERY sunday, preach to people, live their life by the Bible etc) they generally (~90%) have had an average life, they aren't highly successful, a lot of them are in crappy situations, the thing that probably sets them apart from others is that they're genrally very nice and kind people (which can be explained by psychology of the bible. Once you've chosen to live your life by the book, you'd want to be good and put extra effort so you'll get into heaven etc. So this really isn't 'God induced'.
But I believe in God but I don't really think religion brings something great, I follow a certain religion very very loosely - sort of loosely praying in their manner and believing in being good, kind, nice etc (as all good standing citizens should, not necessarily religious - but religion has a great influence on our laws and our moral reflect these too etc).

Keen

i appreciate you dont simply poo poo my beliefs and all but the "amazing thing" are slightly more than those kinds of things you put up.
im a highly cynical person too and am very sceptical when it comes to other christians who see themselves on a level above nonchristians. i dont hang around many christians at all.
im like you in that im not religious cause i believe religion is a constructed cultural thing. i believe in the christian god and the bible but dont let religion rule my life. i aim at letting my values rule my life not religion like taking on an almost new personality and getting all hyped about church etc.
btw congrats on getting into med. thats wat i was trying for but i stuffed my first 2 sections of umat. ill hopefully get into med sci aslong as the cut off doesnt go up astronomically.

 

[acmilan]

what you say is true, but not completely. this is for people who do not have the laws to live by, so they have to live by their own laws and conscience. these were people before the times of moses and jesus.
however final judgement rests on two issues. works and faith in christ (rev. 20. 13-15). for us, cause we had jesus moses and god must do both works and have faith also. which comes back to what jesus said : i am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.

What i get out of that chapter in the Bible is that God judges everyone fairly. By referring to people that dont follow the Law, it refers to people that dont follow God and the Law that he passed down to the people through Moses in the Ten Commandments, as well as the moral guidelines specified in Leviticus. Later on this Law was not changed by Jesus, but as he himself said, Jesus came to bring it to life and to his followers salvation comes from following God's Law and also belief and faith in Jesus. However non believers do not follow this Law passed by God, technically most Christians today do not completely follow it as it specifies regular sacrificing as well as strict practices. For those that do not follow the Law of God, such as the Gentiles in that time and i guess you could consider Athiests and people of other religions today, they will be judged not on the fact that they did not follow God or Jesus, but that they eminated his teachings through their behaviour, even though they conscienciously are not following what Jesus and God says, but are really living morally correct lives.

 

[thaoroxy2001]

since we're on the subject of christianity....can anyone tell me why all the hardcore christians always gang up on you??.....like I believe in God and Buddha....I actually believe that there is a supreme being up there that is so great and created us.... it doesn't matter what they're called....but in my school....Religious studies is so bad....let's call it Christian studies instead coz....first we learn about all different religions like buddhism and muslim etc. then the teacher's like..."oh...but that religion is incorrect....if you're not christian u go to hell!!!''....I was like "WHAT!!!"....I think it's so wrong to bag out other religions...people can believe what they want....

and another thing....I told the teacher to please stop criticizing other religions coz it's disrespectful and at least teach us about them so we can make our own choices .... I said all religions have a main message: "believe and respect our creator and be a moral and good person"....and she's like ''No! you have to believe in GOD!"....then the other goody-2-shoes christians fully gang up on me saying that it's a sin to question God ..... then they give me greasys all day....what's with dat??....I know not everyone is like dat but geezz....some people have got to open their minds a bit more....
I think it is important to look at the message of other religions....don't look at the believers (like some ppl say muslims are bad because of all the terrorists....but that's just a small group of ppl...I know some muslims that are so kind-hearted and wonderful) look at and understand their true message....then you'll understand that all religions have a pure and good core that is often covered with dirt or left unseen...