Does God Exist? (3 Viewers)

[acmilan]

god doesnt' exist. the concept of God is just some "thing" to explain the unexplainable. The Beatles are bigger than Jesus!

Come on, if you are gonna refute it atleast back it up with something decent that can have arguements made against

 

[Trippendicular]

The Beatles are my messiahs

 

[lukebennett]

The Beatles are my messiahs

lol serious. i guess part of the beatles are not here with us on earth anymore

 

[mr EaZy]

but there are other muslims who think they are better than i am, and when i tried to be friendly to her she just treated me like a dog. those are the kind of people that really upset me and tick me off.

lol, so u got rejected. and by someone whom i presume wears a head scarf. it doesnt mean u can go on about a thread titled: "does god exist" with those kinda comments. Dont worry, its not ur fault u were tempted to write what u did. and btw, i know the kinda people ur describing, just dont take it personal mate
be happy!

and to everyone else: can we keep the title of the thread in mind please. lets just try to not stray from the topic too much. in short: keep it about god and if u want: religon but not how others choose to follow their religons- i think thats reasonable

 

[dark_angel]

The Beatles are my messiahs

the beatles sucked

in fact, a real beatle was much more entertaining

 

[Bolkonski]

The whole debate over the existence of God is Socratic. It's all about the Socratic God, does he exist in the way Socrates debated God? e.g. A singular (non plural (non trinitarian), creator God.

University philosophy lectures are, quite frankly, crap. They don't even touch the issue because they spend too much time debating a "Judeo-Christian God" when in actual fact, this term itself is contradictory. Jewish people don't believe Jesus to be a part of the trinity (He is not their saviour - they are still waiting for him), and Christians do. They are at opposite ends of the spectrums.

So what God are we discussing? I couldn't be bothered reading the 2000 odd posts before this, but if we are to discuss the existence of the Christian God, then you must discuss the existence or non-existence of the trinity, of which Jesus Christ (of Nazareth - Historical figure certified by non christian sources 2000 years ago) is a part of.

So... did Jesus exist, and is he God?

Yes. To me, historically, this is viable. The Bible isn't as tainted as some may think. (for further reading - http://buckledfoto.8m.com/misc.html) The biblical prerequisites for a narration required at least two eye witnesses. This allowed writers like Paul to be able to testify to Jesus' resurrection to the thousands that he talked to in his ministry, with absolute validity. People aren't fooled and would have wanted to know if what he was saying could be proved.

Just the simple fact that (read John for example) Jesus' resurrection is recounted and we are told in those recounts that hundreds of people saw Jesus in about 40 odd days after he actually DIED (read the crucifiction scene in any Gospel - romans poked the crap out of him to make SURE he was Dead.. Romans weren't exactly pro-Jesus at that time) is enough historical evidence for me. (or read John 20:27ff) (Luke 24:1-53) (if you didn't look any of the others up do this one: Acts 1:1-3).
And because there is no other man in history who has supposedly been raised to life after he said he would, this to me is more than enough. Lets look at his claims, he claims he would be raised again after 3 days. (John 2:19, Mark 14:58) When Jesus says he will "destroy this temple" he is talking about how the Israelites related to God in the temple. By saying he will destroy the temple he is saying he will destroy the way God will henceforth (after Jesus' death) be related to. So, after his death, people no longer had to go to the huge temple the Jews built for God to live in. Because after Jesus' death, the temple was Jesus. The way we would now relate to God, was through Jesus. Jesus would become our "middle man" in a way. (John 14:6) And because we can't exactly communicate with God if both our temple is destroyed and our new middle man is dead, Jesus was raised to life 3 days later, something he testified to WHILST ALIVE, this claim is verified by his actual ressurection three days later.

anyway...

Besides, if the stuff he said was true, don't you think it's actually worth checking out and actually reading up on what he said - and all the contextual stuff in the Old Testament. There is too much at stake if what Jesus said was correct:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me." John 14:6

 

[lukebennett]

The whole debate over the existence of God is Socratic. It's all about the Socratic God, does he exist in the way Socrates debated God? e.g. A singular (non plural (non trinitarian), creator God.

University philosophy lectures are, quite frankly, crap. They don't even touch the issue because they spend too much time debating a "Judeo-Christian God" when in actual fact, this term itself is contradictory. Jewish people don't believe Jesus to be a part of the trinity (He is not their saviour - they are still waiting for him), and Christians do. They are at opposite ends of the spectrums.

So what God are we discussing? I couldn't be bothered reading the 2000 odd posts before this, but if we are to discuss the existence of the Christian God, then you must discuss the existence or non-existence of the trinity, of which Jesus Christ (of Nazareth - Historical figure certified by non christian sources 2000 years ago) is a part of.

So... did Jesus exist, and is he God?

Yes. To me, historically, this is viable. The Bible isn't as tainted as some may think. (for further reading - http://buckledfoto.8m.com/reliable.doc) The biblical prerequisites for a narration required at least two eye witnesses. This allowed writers like Paul to be able to testify to Jesus' resurrection to the thousands that he talked to in his ministry, with absolute validity. People aren't fooled and would have wanted to know if what he was saying could be proved.

Just the simple fact that (read John for example) Jesus' resurrection is recounted and we are told in those recounts that hundreds of people saw Jesus in about 40 odd days after he actually DIED (read the crucifiction scene in any Gospel - romans poked the crap out of him to make SURE he was Dead.. Romans weren't exactly pro-Jesus at that time) is enough historical evidence for me. (or read John 20:27ff) (Luke 24:1-53) (if you didn't look any of the others up do this one: Acts 1:1-3).
And because there is no other man in history who has supposedly been raised to life after he said he would, this to me is more than enough. Lets look at his claims, he claims he would be raised again after 3 days. (John 2:19, Mark 14:58) When Jesus says he will "destroy this temple" he is talking about how the Israelites related to God in the temple. By saying he will destroy the temple he is saying he will destroy the way God will henceforth (after Jesus' death) be related to. So, after his death, people no longer had to go to the huge temple the Jews built for God to live in. Because after Jesus' death, the temple was Jesus. The way we would now relate to God, was through Jesus. Jesus would become our "middle man" in a way. (John 14:6) And because we can't exactly communicate with God if both our temple is destroyed and our new middle man is dead, Jesus was raised to life 3 days later, something he testified to WHILST ALIVE, this claim is verified by his actual ressurection three days later.

anyway...

Besides, if the stuff he said was true, don't you think it's actually worth checking out and actually reading up on what he said - and all the contextual stuff in the Old Testament. There is too much at stake if what Jesus said was correct:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me." John 14:6

what is even more amazing if you believe is that he was dead for 3 days. some people come back after a minute or so but 3 days would leave your brain completely dead usually

 

[Keen]

And that you believe that the only way through to God is through Jesus - that's just plain religist and in a sense racist and supremist. You are saying that Jews (who as you say don't believe this) aren't going to be able to see God and Heaven and this is coming from like the same religion as you.
We won't even go into other cultures/religions.

I still believe that the Bible is still a game of chinese whispers - if you get a couple of people with an impressive story rumours will spread like crazy and you can start a whole religion like this given the right stories/persuasion etc in a couple of weeks, let alone a few years. And as we get into a few thousand years it is true that these stories are dead.
Even the fact that the Bible doesn't speak for a period longer than about 2000 years. By now it is useless, I mean it refers to slavery, it doesn't really refer to homosexuality these are things that have totally changed. You have to appreciate it was a book written at that time for the time (leading more proof that it was manufactured then and there by people), god would be able to know that in 2000 years we would be arguing over gay marriages and how right/wrong it is and he would be smart enough to put one line in.
I mean OK I'll accept that he can't help little Johnny the guy who goes to church every week to become a doctor, but he could have put in one line to save a lot of argument.

It's that plain and simple.

Keen

 

[joujou_84]

And that you believe that the only way through to God is through Jesus - that's just plain religist and in a sense racist and supremist. You are saying that Jews (who as you say don't believe this) aren't going to be able to see God and Heaven and this is coming from like the same religion as you.
We won't even go into other cultures/religions.

I still believe that the Bible is still a game of chinese whispers - if you get a couple of people with an impressive story rumours will spread like crazy and you can start a whole religion like this given the right stories/persuasion etc in a couple of weeks, let alone a few years. And as we get into a few thousand years it is true that these stories are dead.
Even the fact that the Bible doesn't speak for a period longer than about 2000 years. By now it is useless, I mean it refers to slavery, it doesn't really refer to homosexuality these are things that have totally changed. You have to appreciate it was a book written at that time for the time (leading more proof that it was manufactured then and there by people), god would be able to know that in 2000 years we would be arguing over gay marriages and how right/wrong it is and he would be smart enough to put one line in.
I mean OK I'll accept that he can't help little Johnny the guy who goes to church every week to become a doctor, but he could have put in one line to save a lot of argument.

It's that plain and simple.

Keen

maybe the bible used to be simple and is really confusing now since its been changed so many times....u neva know...the bible around now could look nothing like the bible actually sent down by god.....

 

[Keen]

Yeah but if you say that, you sort of admit that you can't read into it that much. You're saying it's not as accurate as some say. IF they claim it's so accurate and many live their lives off it wouldn't you want it to be the original truth rather than a church's remake?

Keen

 

[acmilan]

And that you believe that the only way through to God is through Jesus - that's just plain religist and in a sense racist and supremist. You are saying that Jews (who as you say don't believe this) aren't going to be able to see God and Heaven and this is coming from like the same religion as you.
We won't even go into other cultures/religions.

I still believe that the Bible is still a game of chinese whispers - if you get a couple of people with an impressive story rumours will spread like crazy and you can start a whole religion like this given the right stories/persuasion etc in a couple of weeks, let alone a few years. And as we get into a few thousand years it is true that these stories are dead.
Even the fact that the Bible doesn't speak for a period longer than about 2000 years. By now it is useless, I mean it refers to slavery, it doesn't really refer to homosexuality these are things that have totally changed. You have to appreciate it was a book written at that time for the time (leading more proof that it was manufactured then and there by people), god would be able to know that in 2000 years we would be arguing over gay marriages and how right/wrong it is and he would be smart enough to put one line in.
I mean OK I'll accept that he can't help little Johnny the guy who goes to church every week to become a doctor, but he could have put in one line to save a lot of argument.

It's that plain and simple.

Keen

The Bible does refer to homosexuality. It is also part of the mitzvot for Jews. Maimonides, a great Jewish philosopher who interpreted to mitzvot for the people way back long ago said something along the lines of "you shall not lie down with a man in the same way as a woman; it is an abomination"

 

[joujou_84]

The Bible does refer to homosexuality. It is also part of the mitzvot for Jews. Maimonides, a great Jewish philosopher who interpreted to mitzvot for the people way back long ago said something along the lines of "you shall not lie down with a man in the same way as a woman; it is an abomination"

i think ive also read somewhere abt Lot and the ppl of that town ( forgot its name) where everyone was sleepin with everyone else (of the same sex) and Lot mentions wat a great sin they were commiting........the bible seems to be clear on homosexuality.......actually im yet to hear of any religion that welcomes homosexuality.....anyone know one?

 

[joujou_84]

Yeah but if you say that, you sort of admit that you can't read into it that much. You're saying it's not as accurate as some say. IF they claim it's so accurate and many live their lives off it wouldn't you want it to be the original truth rather than a church's remake?

Keen

uh i dunno........i dont go by the bible.......i follow the qoran.......

 

[acmilan]

Well for Christians the New Testament perfects the old system and the most important thing from a catholic perspective is not abiding by the exact words of the Bible, but rather taking the messages it gives and showing faith to God and Christ. Catholics are strong followers of both authority figures and natural law (where human perception is used in life to realise God)

 

[snapperhead]

i think ive also read somewhere abt Lot and the ppl of that town ( forgot its name) where everyone was sleepin with everyone else (of the same sex) and Lot mentions wat a great sin they were commiting........the bible seems to be clear on homosexuality.......actually im yet to hear of any religion that welcomes homosexuality.....anyone know one?

Soddom and Gommorah

and

Buddhism...... sort of
and technically Catholics dont have a problem with homosexuals... just the homosexual act. Its those wacky Protestants that give everyone a bad name!!



There are only a handfull of references in the bible and most of them are taken out of context. the only definite one is the one ac mentioned which is followed by that women shouldnt wear linen pants so I dont know what was going on there!!

 

[snapperhead]

i meant physical features.....like when u pray to a statue...this statue looks like something...u can describe its appearence however u cannot describe gods appearence....

it does as it says we (humans) were created in his image .: God looks like us!!( or we look like God)
Plus he walked in the garden with Adam >; again, he has 'human' qualities (or we have godlike qualities)!!!

Note: from Old Testament perspective so I would assume that this is for both Jewish and Christian (duh) and maybe Muslim as well (willing to be corrected on the Muslim bit)

 

[physician]

it does as it says we (humans) were created in his image .: God looks like us!!( or we look like God)
Plus he walked in the garden with Adam >; again, he has 'human' qualities (or we have godlike qualities)!!!

Note: from Old Testament perspective so I would assume that this is for both Jewish and Christian (duh) and maybe Muslim as well (willing to be corrected on the Muslim bit)

well actually in Islam, in the Quran, it doesnt say anyhting about God walking with adam, but states the conversation, about the tree, and that adam was not supposed to eat from that tree, and how he was tempted by the devil etc and what God was telling adam, but not that he was walking with adam. In accordance to God's features, i have no right to say anything, he is all knowing all wise, and it is forbidden for a muslim to even think of the chracateristics of God. God is superior, God is our creator.

 

[joujou_84]

it does as it says we (humans) were created in his image .: God looks like us!!( or we look like God)
Plus he walked in the garden with Adam >; again, he has 'human' qualities (or we have godlike qualities)!!!

Note: from Old Testament perspective so I would assume that this is for both Jewish and Christian (duh) and maybe Muslim as well (willing to be corrected on the Muslim bit)

uhhh no....it dosent say in the qoran that god made us in his image.....

edit: if god has an image...then we r limiting god and how can u limit something that is absolute.....

 

[dark_angel]

uhhh no....it dosent say in the qoran that god made us in his image.....

edit: if god has an image...then we r limiting god and how can u limit something that is absolute.....

ah im *&%$^%& sick of this thread

cant we understand that theres no point in arguing this anymore.

i've invested too much time in arguing shit here.

This is becoming pointless (if it wasnt from the very beginning)


well i guess this is my closing statement. (btw i might pop up again if something interesting scientific or religious pops up again)

i already made my points earlier, hell i even gave debatable evidence, which obviously has been rejected (anything i give will be, its common sense)

i beleive that god exists...

u might ask y i do, well i guess thats a complicated question.

my answer.... i just do.


i will follow my religion (sikhism) as best as i possibly can, and because unlike other religions it is pure, and non-contradictory, it is logical, it makes sense to me and 20 million other people. u might say the same for islam or christianity, but how many people actually ACT on the words of god?

A progressive religion well ahead of its time when it was founded over 500 years ago, The Sikh religion today has a following of over 20 million people worldwide and is ranked as the worlds 5th largest religion. Sikhism preaches a message of devotion and remembrance of God at all times, truthful living, equality of mankind and denounces superstitions and blind rituals. Sikhism is open to all through the teachings of its 10 Gurus enshrined in the Sikh Holy Book and Living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

people go to church every sunday and see it as a chore. (not everyone ofcourse) i wonder y? Well in reality i dont really give a shit, all i need to say is that religion does not matter, as long as we believe and worship the true guru (god is one)

I dont know anything about christianity, or Islam or any other religion

but i do know that sikhism is the way for me.

The main goal in life is to achieve freedom from births and deaths. (if u want to know more about this, go to the website below)

we are so consumed by mammon/maya (which god has created) that we forget the true lord, with the blessing of god we find that human life is mearly a show.

When the angels of death arrest you, what will you say when you are in gods court, and when the gods judge asks you what you have done to become closer to god? what will you say?

Ok i understand that people think that perhaps there is no afterlife, ther is basically a 50% chance. When u live up this life, become rich, do all that you dreamed of, then you die, we will all die, its just a fact of life. Fair enough there may not be an afterlife. BUT THERE IS A 50% chance there is. Thats it, either there is, or there isnt (this is AFTER you die, ofcourse). your sins will all be accounted for. Note that there are angels that take note of ones deeds in life. When u steal in secret, when you do something, the soul is astonished to find that these have also been recoreded, and will be called for in your trial. You will have to walk the thinnest edges, like that of a double edged sword, then you will think y did i not sing gods words? (there is still time, as i said again if u want to find out more, go to the website)

note that any good deeds will be servicable to you in gods court.

the true saints who are countless, are immune from death, and find in their minds, all the riches that you could imagine.

A wealthy, selfish emperor is nothing compared to even an ant, who perhaps always keeps the name of god in its heart/mind

me???? well i dont even know y i even bothered writing this, but i guess its because i want to make a difference in someones life. IF you are feeling down, or you have committed an act that you know is very bad, y not come down to a Gurudwara (please excuse my poor speelling ability, even though i did get 90% in my english trials, and came first, lol). there are free kitchens, where everyone communes. This is called LANGAR. Hmmm is still remember, the tea is Absolutely amazing there, i suggest you try some. Well this is obvioulsy open to anyone, and its such a good environment, you can talk to some of the elderly sikhs there, or the respected people who can speak english quite well, they will tell you what you can gain by beleiving in god.

Hmmm i guess thats all i wanted to say, for all the people wondering about their faith in god, remember that u dont really need a religion, but sikhism is based on gods words.

Just remember that there is only one god. This divine light is present in everything and all of us. Thats y i need to change myself. Eyes werent meant to cast evil looks, mouths werent meant to slander or swear, even though i do, quite alot, but hopefully that will change soon.

i guess i need to find out more about my religion for myself, and so that i may perhaps unite with the one true lord. (Yes, this is perhaps the ultimate goal)

as to how this can be acheived, as i said see the website.

hmmm ive wasted enough time already, peace to you all, i'm off to try and find Cd-keys for halflife 2 even though my search will probably end in vain.

if u wanna talk to me on msn:

dark_angel0487@hotmail.com (theres an underscore there)

Go to www.sikhs.org to learn more about this religion, if you are an atheist, i challenge you to find anything illogical in this doctrine. you will see it perhaps more helpful than anything you can find at the moment (ie faith in god, no prayer made sincerely will go unnoticed)

i thank god for showing me the door and waking me from my slumber, i'm off to living my life........

oh crap, one more thing, if ur REALLY have commited a sin or some crap like that, DO NOT go to preists, y, because they are too full of ego to do anything, and they cant give u devine forgiveness!!!? like wtf, its just common sense.

only god can, this is why the sikh religion does not have any priests, or any religious leaders, it is just you and god

 

[ogmzergrush]

oh crap, one more thing, if ur REALLY have commited a sin or some crap like that, DO NOT go to preists, y, because they are too full of ego to do anything, and they cant give u devine forgiveness!!!? like wtf, its just common sense.

only god can, this is why the sikh religion does not have any priests, or any religious leaders, it is just you and god

Forgive me for perpetuating this thread further, but I think comments like that could perhaps be part of the problem. As you said, it's pretty pointless to argue the issue as everyone has their own beliefs (Or lack thereof), but after saying this you go on to be critical of elements of other religions in stating why you see yours as being the better option.

While your religion doesn't have priests, and you see no need for them (Which is fine), there are others who do highly regard this role, so it may prove *somewhat* unproductive telling people to stop arguing, then continuing to be critical of their beliefs.

I'm currently in the process of reading through the site you posted, and I do notice that it makes the point that priests have ego problems, but to someone who doesn't believe the same thing, a statement like that is fairly likely to only cause further friction. That's all this post is attempting to say, in my own special long-winded way, so don't get me wrong and think I'm denouncing your religion, or supporting any other for that matter.

Edit: typos ahoy