Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[joujou_84]

If it's as bright as day, care to show us?

all i can say is i was once like u? didnt believe. but theres something out there and it cant be denied. that supreme force is god

 

[MoonlightSonata]

ok if i said the 'human existence is due to a series of chance events and progressive innovation" (im not making this up, i got it from sumwhere) who would agree with this?

That is very vague... what do you mean by "the human existence" and more importantly, "progressive innovation"?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

all i can say is i was once like u? didnt believe. but theres something out there and it cant be denied. that supreme force is god

Of course it can't be denied. It can't be validly asserted either.

 

[joujou_84]

That is very vague... what do you mean by "the human existence" and more importantly, "progressive innovation"?

human esistence= our ability to be born, survive
progressive innovation=technological advancements, medical advancements

 

[MoonlightSonata]

well...i was working on a logical way to prove god...it borrows from what other ppl have dun b4, but they seem to get stuck at about the same place i do...so i was trying to figure a way around it...
the way sort of works like, u prove that everything works if god exists through infinite regression, yet without the intial step, nothing can exist in the universe...thus isn't that proof by contradiction that god exists? that's all i was asking...

That's like... the first time something that looks like a reason for God has graced this whole forum... annoyingly at post #590

I assume what you mean is this...
1. Everything had a cause
2. Every cause is the effect of a previous cause
3. Something must have started it all
4. God is the first cause

However, what caused God? Why should we believe God is the first cause, simply to solve a mystery? You might say that God is not subject to the rule that everything has a cause (because he exists at all times simultaneously). Firstly, we might say that God can't be an uncaused cause because a cause (even if uncaused) requires temporality. It must exist within the universe and not outside the univrse, which is where God is supposed to be. But secondly and more importantly, this is a fallacy of question-begging (you assume what you want to prove in the conclusion, in one or more of the premises) --

"Everything except God has a cause. The universe is not God. Therefore, the universe has a cause."

 

[joujou_84]

When you believe in the existence of the great goat-god Gorgamel, you will understand everything is controlled by him, as long as you don't believe in him you won't understand me.

See how stupid that is?

yes ur right. i need to find logical proof for his existence, im making u try to see things from my view and its not making sense to u. ill keep working on it. its easy for me coz i can see it, though its difficult to explain it to those who cant

 

[MoonlightSonata]

sub... I'm not sure how to fix the argument up :/

 

[MoonlightSonata]

--------

yes ur right. i need to find logical proof for his existence, im making u try to see things from my view and its not making sense to u. ill keep working on it. its easy for me coz i can see it, though its difficult to explain it to those who cant

Thankyou

 

[sub]

yeah thats what i found...assuming what is to be proven...however, my argument for god being there is sort of different to what u sed, but in the end, it doesn't offer the logic u seek, my reasoning was as follows:

God is the first starter, and is limitless, unlike us humans. no matter what that first thing that started it all...that is god. also nothing can create god, because he is the starter of all things...he is the initial cause.

the only problem is this assumes there is a god to prove it, and the definition of what a "god" is is so up in the air, it almost seems as though its plugging in what needs to be there to prove my theory for a god...

...bugger...more searching for me...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

yeah thats what i found...assuming what is to be proven...however, my argument for god being there is sort of different to what u sed, but in the end, it doesn't offer the logic u seek, my reasoning was as follows:

God is the first starter, and is limitless, unlike us humans. no matter what that first thing that started it all...that is god. also nothing can create god, because he is the starter of all things...he is the initial cause.

the only problem is this assumes there is a god to prove it, and the definition of what a "god" is is so up in the air, it almost seems as though its plugging in what needs to be there to prove my theory for a god...

...bugger...more searching for me...

indeed..

its circular
I think all those 'first mover', 'first-cause' arguments have similar problems

 

[joujou_84]

ok let me ask this question, a person comes from their parents and thier parents come from their parents and so on and so forth but dosent this creation of human life call for an uncreated creator or can we just illogically go to infinite saying i came frommy parents who came from theres and so on?

 

[sub]

thats the infinite regression thing i was trying, only mine was including more than humans...it still faces the same problem...

 

[Wilmo]

You are one of many billion. God will not answer your prayer. How trivial a god would be to answer a single persons prayer when many are praying opposing things or perhaps for themselves, something similiar.

1 in 6 billion actually... you'll never find another quite like me. God CAN and WILL answer his childrens prayers. If he is omniscient, then the will know what he is going to do. Therefore if people pray for the thing that he's going to do to happen, he will answer "yes, this is what will happen"... if they pray opposing things, the answer will be no.

Questions have two answers, yes and no... thats just common sense. So if two people were to ask two opposing questions, one would be answered yes, the other no. An answer to a question does not have to be yes, you should know that.

Saying that those who do not believe will be damned? Them going to hell was obviously a indirectly effected by this...

EVERYBODY is affected by that. Indirectly the Romans would have been affected by it. Jesus didnt come to damn the oppressors of the Jews, he came to liberate those oppressed by the greater oppressor, the oppression of knowing that no matter how "good" a life you lead you cannot please God.

Granted Romans would suffer under this, but so would the self righteous jews, the pompous "christians", ANYONE... you cannot say that he came to damn the Romans because he didnt.

So it is fair that a murderer who repents before their death be given the same place in heaven as the people he killed? If so i wonder how many innocent victims have gotten a shock when their murderer has appeared in heaven with them...

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Is it fair that a man who has been good all his life, yet not chosen to take the offer of forgiveness goes to hell? I dont think so. But for that mans whole life he has been living as though he was god. Everything he did he did because he had the power to do it, and people gave him the reward he wanted, respect and honour. He lived his good life self sufficient from God, and therefore he is going to spend his eternity self sufficient without God.

If a murderer realises that he is wrong, and is aware that he can't please God by himself, so he takes the forgiveness on offer, what about him? He accepts Christ as his representitive, then Christ is labled the murderer, Christ suffers for this mans own judgement. His sin is not forgotten, but his punshment is transfered from him to his representitive.

Have you forgiven, or been forgiven of a massive debt? Any kind of debt at all? Say you hurt someone badly, or they hurt you badly, has forgiveness been applied in this situation. Until you experience such forgiveness, you will not really be aware of how freeing it is. If i were to murder someone, then go to heaven and meet the person i killed, and they were to say 3 little words "I forgive you!", then surely that will be a most freeing feeling. Similarly, if I met my murderer in heaven, not only would i feel the freedom of forgiving, but I also feel the joy that he doesnt have to suffer without God for an eternity.

There are no grudges in heaven, because the feelings behind a grudge die with our old self.

Someone who stands by and watches children die? I thought god was bound by his own rules, if so then by his inaction is he not a murderer? what about letting a plane crash when he could stop it? What about the 'miracles' where one person survives a plane crash... that must mean that therefor it is a miracle that the other people died too, therefore god killed and broke his covenant.

Where is the logic in that? If your son makes the choice to kill someone, does that make you a murderer? By his action, do you get the blame for it? It is your sons choice to kill, and you had expressed yourself over and over again saying "DONT KILL", and you set the example in your life, yet he still does it, so why should other people blame you?

I think you'll find it is often human negligence that causes the planes to crash, so therefore humans are responsible. At other times, say if lightning hits the plane, it is blamed on an act of God... but you dont believe in God, and you think science explains everything. Science explains why metal attracts electricity. Why label a God you dont believe in a murderer, if the science that you are sure of is responsible for killing people?

Basically...The idea of God sacrificing himself to himself, in order to prevent himself sending us all to Hell for commiting sins because of the way he made us, and which he knew we were going to do anyway.. is just weird.

Sacrificing the life of an unblemished animal takes the punishment I deserve, and transfers it to that animal. That animal becomes my representitive. That sounds cruel, but its what many religions believe. I know that people have a special bond with animals, but i think it would be hard to believe an animal is a humans equal. Its not. Therefore animal sacrifices would need to be continually carried out.

Surely a human sacrifice would need to be carried out only once, because then a human being become the representitive for a human being. BUT, the big problem is that you would need to find a perfect human being if you were to be represented as perfect before God. The only perfect human, would be one that was also God. Hence, weird as it is, that is why God saw it necessary to sacrifice himself.

Despite God's foreknowledge, we have the freedom of choice. Adam had the choice not to sin, yet he chose to rebell. Jesus had the choice to sin, he chose to obey. Because he obeyed, we now have a choice: Accept him as our representitive, or continue to live as our own representitives. I cannot force anyone to accept Jesus as their representitive. All I can do is say these are the options given, you have to decide yourself which option to take.

Now some questions for you, i'd like them answered as no theist has really been bothered to give them the time of day.

An atheist will encounter many and varied claims for the existence of a particular deity. It only seems reasonable to ask for some sort of tangible evidence to back up these claims, does it not? After all, if I ran into the room and shouted "I have just seen a UFO! I was this close to being abducted!", you might not immediately take my word for it. You might well ask for some evidence, such as a photograph (autographed if possible), or strange alien artifact. You might go to the location where I claim to have seen the spaceship, and inspect it for yourself. You could probably think up a number of alternative explanations for what I said I saw. If I fail to support my claims, why on earth should you take my word for it?

If I cant find evidence of the truth, then yes I would be highly skeptical. BUT why should I rule out the fact that you may have seen a UFO? If you saw a UFO, then you may well have seen it, but if i didnt see it as well, then I will not know if you really did see it. Surely I must experience it myself if I am going to fully believe it, but just because I didnt experience it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Take a meteor shower as an example: If some of my best mates were outside at night and they saw a metoer shower in the sky, yet I was inside and didnt experience it, then is it possible that it still happened? Just because I havent experienced the meteor shower doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. It just means i havent experienced it, and so I'll find it hard to believe.

In the same way, just because you havent experienced the presence of God doesnt mean that he doesnt exist. It means you have havent experience him. Despite how hard you would find it to believe, that doesnt mean that you should discount it all together as something made up.

Many common reasons for belief in god...

"Look around you! How can you witness the beauty of God-X's Creation and still disbelieve. Look at the trees, the birds, the bunnies!"
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Many other religions make exactly the same claim. Why is your one special? Surely the trees, bunnies etc. are therefore equally valid proof of the existence of hundreds of other gods? One supernatural explanation is just as valid as any other.

How does it prove the existance of hundreds of other gods? If the sky has a different kind of splendour to the grass, then does that mean that they were both created by different gods? Is it not possible one God created everything? That there is only one God but because people see varying arrays of creation they choose to believe in varying arrays of gods? My religion is not special because it believes that God is visible in creation... Its different because of the Christ.

* Unfortunately, everything you describe can also be explained in mundane, rational, scientific terms, without the need to invoke a Creator.

Creation is physical... and because it is physical, one day we smart human beings may be able to replicate everything in creation... Good for us. It is the spiritual aspect of religion that is impossible to be recreated physically.

* What about the nasty things in life? Guinea worms, anthrax, mosquitoes; all the blood-sucking, parasitical, disease-bearing, poisonous beasties that kill us and each other in horrific ways? Watched any nature programmes recently?

The bad things weren't created bad. Creation was created perfect and was designed to last forever according to God's plan. When the first humans sinned, they were like "You created perfection, we choose to be imperfect". Then they, as in Adam and Eve, were cursed (Genesis chapter 3 if you want to look it up). Not only were people cursed, but all creation was cursed because of them.

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it

That frustration is the frustration of being made imperfect from perfection. Diseases didn't exist in perfection, but in imperfection they do. Beasties that hurt us and kill us didn't exist in perfection, but in imperfection they do. Imperfect and dangerous though they may be, they still have a certain sense of awe about them.

And yes I do watch nature programs all the time... Go Discovery Channel!

"Six hundred million people follow my religion. They can't all be wrong - there must be something in it."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Nine hundred million people follow religion Z. Are they all wrong? Truth is not democratic - you can't vote for objective reality.

If religion Z is wrong, then Im afraid all those people would be wrong. If 9 hundred million people thought bulemia was healthy, would it become healthy? No, it would just become popular. There is but one truth, and no matter how many people believe what is false, it will not become a truth.

* Maybe they are right. Maybe their god exists as well as your god?

Maybe they are right, maybe their God exists, but two Gods cannot exist together. There can be only one God. If a God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, then surely two such beings cannot coexist. Therefore there is only one God that exists, and any other God or gods people worship must be the same God viewed from a different perspective... or maybe their religions god is not a god at all. People worship money, but that doesnt make money an aspect of God.

* If they're wrong, couldn't you also be wrong? After all, they seem to believe at least as strongly and sincerely as you do, and for many of the same reasons...

Im not quite sure how to discuss this point because obviously I am biased. In my general opinion, one religion must be the correct one. If there is one God, and one way to get to live with him, then one religion must be correct. Obviously the true God would give to people a true way of getting to him. But I am biased as to what I think that one is.

Being a christian, i chose to believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that because he is THE true God incarnate he speaks THE truth. And when he says he is the ONLY way to get to the Father, then he IS the only way to get to the father.

But other people will disagree with me on that...

"I have personally witnessed a miracle. I can trust my senses."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Lots of people have personally witnessed Elvis working at the Drive-Thru. Should I believe them also? Without any sort of evidence, personal subjective testimony is not very convincing.

Im not the best theist to answer this lot of questions because I personally havent witnessed any miracles (and I don't need to!).

First off, I have not seen Elvis in person. This makes me not a good judge if i were to see Elvis in a diner. I don't know the person he was, and therfore i cant compare him to the person at the drive-thru.

I also think that Elvis is not a good miracle to compare a religious miracle with. Namely pretty much everyone in Memphis and Las Vegas, and anywhere he was appreciated dresses up like him. I don't know about you, but I havent seen anyone running round dressed like the Virgin Mary, its mainly statues and inanimate objects which are viewed as religious miracles.

* Many people from other religions claim to have witnessed miracles. Does this mean that their God also exists? Just how many Gods are there?

You must be aware that not all spiritual miracles are Heaven sent. There is also demons in the spiritual world that have the primary aim of misleading people. Satan, as im sure you've heard of, means Accuser. He isnt what a lot of people think that he is. What he does (and this is evident Genesis and in the book of Job), is try to make the people who are living how God wants to stumble and reject God. I.E. when he makes Eve, who was living perfectly, eat the fruit and live imperfectly.

There is but one God as i stated before, because there can be only one. Miracles do not prove the existance of many gods, but the existance of a spiritual world.

* Are you positive that Divine Intervention is the only possible explanation for what you saw?

Cant answer that one sorry...

"My God is a living God. All those other ones are just ancient myths."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Those gods were "living Gods" to the people who believed in them. Zeuss, Odin and Jupiter once had followers every bit as devout as you.

They may have believed they were "living gods", but gods have no power. The ancient religions had gods for just about everything you can think of, they even had gods they didnt know what they did. If I take a living body, chop it up into so many pieces that I didnt know what piece came from what part of the body, it wouldnt be living anymore... it would just be a piece of God that im worshiping as though it were the whole of God.

* Many of the "ancient" religions still have active, devout, sincere followers. Just like you. Why should I accept your claims over theirs identical ones?

Thats where it gets difficult. I cant tell you what to believe. I can only hope that anything I have said may have made you realise that there is, and only can be, one God. And if you can truely believe that there is one God, then you can pray believing that he will hear you, and he will hear you. And after he hears you, you will get an answer

* How many people claim to worship dead gods?

You dont have to claim that you worship a dead god... If you are worshiping a stone, it obviously isnt alive, so therefore its dead. If you are worshiping money, it obviously isnt alive and therefore its dead. Any idol that can be made, or is physical, is obviously a spiritually dead god.

"We are God's Chosen People."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* So why doesn't he look after you a bit better? How many of his followers have suffered or died recently? Statistically, are you any better off than followers of other religions?

How well do you want to be looked after? Most people have food to eat and places to sleep, you don't need any more than that.

[QUOTE="Philippians 4:12-13]I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength.[/QUOTE]

No matter what physical situation a christian is put in, they can always be satisfied in God. Im a real whinger sometimes, but there are so many times when I've known that I dont need to worry because my God is looking out for me, and strengthening me.

About suffering: The times that you feel pain strengthen you to endure it. They also make you appreciate the times that you are not in pain. Just because the situation is bad, or the going is tough doesnt mean suffering is a bad thing. It develops perserverence, and perseverence builds character.

About dying: Man, dying has to suck.... giving up this life of imperfectness to spend eternity with God in paradise. I sure hope I never die because I wouldn't want that at all In my opinion dying isnt that bad. Not that that means i want to run out on the road and die right now, because I love living, and i love hanging out with my friends, but really its all only temporary, so its not that bad.

* Again, the same claim is made by other religions. How do I know they aren't the Chosen Ones?

Again, im subjective here. But I believe that the Jews were God's chosen people, then the messiah came and said, "I'm what you're ALL waiting for. Not just Jews but everyone!". Hence everyone "can" be included under the title of Gods chosen people. (I said can in inverted commas because if I explain it further, we get into things which there isnt much point in doing on a forum)

* So what are the rest of us here for? What about the ones living in remote villages who will live their entire lives without even hearing of your god?

I believe that all people can partly choose their salvation (it does have biblical reference but im sooooo to lazy to explain it here because its more of a christian thing than a general information thing), so everybody "can" be saved, but not everybody will choose to be. If you remain unconvinced that their is a God, obviously you wont choose to be saved by him.

About the villagers: Is it not concievable that an omniscient God would find a way to inform people of his existance some other way? (Again i have biblical reference, but its not something that I know heaps about, so there would be no point in discussing something i dont really understand yet)

"If the probability of something happening is less than about 1e-15 (or 0.000000000000001) it is considered to be impossible. The probability of life occuring 'by accident' is far less than this, therefore it must be a miracle caused by God.."

What's wrong with this? Several things:

* It ignores the size of the universe. There are hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars, any of which might have planets capable of supporting life. Even an "impossibly improbable" event is almost a certainty (and we already know of one planet that supports life).

I will not rule out the possibility of life on other planets because we are only one tiny planet in one tiny galaxy of a big large universe. But i think its interesting how precisely placed our little planet is. That doesnt prove that a God specifically placed us there, but I think he did.

But i also don't see how finding life on other planets would disprove God exists... maybe thats just me who doesnt see it though...

* Statistics are fun, aren't they? Shuffle a deck of playing cards, and lay them out on a table. The probability of the sequence you see appearing is 1/52 for the first card, 1/52 x 1/51 at the second card, 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50 by the third card and so on. The probability that you produced the sequence you just did is 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50......x 1/3 x 1/2 x 1/1 ( more simply, 1/(52!) ), or 1.2398e-68 (which is an incredible 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000012398). How can this be?!? Maybe you are hallucinating and it did not actually occur?

You have just done something statistically impossible, trillions of times more unlikely than the formation of life (some say 1e-50 is the "impossibility threshold" instead, but we've beaten that as well). You could even do it six times before breakfast every day!

Statistics are fun Id agree.





Well... I hope that answered some of those questions at least... have fun


(haha i got sloppy with my answers down the bottom sorry... so tired)

 

[sub]

indeed..

its circular
I think all those 'first mover', 'first-cause' arguments have similar problems

hey moonlight, what do u define as "god"...maybe i can work off that...as there is no real definition for what god is...it sorta gets lost in translation. also, my definition of what god is may be considered "biased" as i follow a religion...
pls dont say "an elusive being believed by some to exist..." - i want a real definition, like the starter of all things...not making much sense am i?
well...i want a definition that u can relate to god. is it the ultimate being upon whom there is no parallel? just throw some ideas around and ill see if i can get them to work, cos i REALLY think i have to sorta look at it from ur perspective to give u what ur looking for...once again no promises that i can deliver

 

[joujou_84]

oh ok so the question is why does the starter of all these events have to be god. well it dosent. call it wat u want. nature, joe or fred. it is the same concept. there is an uncreated creator and the majority label this creator as god but one can label him what they want. hang on do we all agree that there must be an uncreated creator?

 

[sub]

oh ok so the question is why does the starter of all these events have to be god. well it dosent. call it wat u find. nature, joe or fred. it is the same concept. there is an uncreated creator and the majority label this creator as god but one can label him what they want. hang on do we all agree that there must be an uncreated creator?

joujou, the problem with the argument isn't in the name...u assume what ur trying to prove... i used this logic many times, but always get stuck at the same point...maybe we're overlooking something, or it's not the way to prove it...just gotta keep searching for now

 

[sub]

wow, wilmo, u really outdid not-that-bright with that one...how long did that take u to write? *astonished...not sarcastic*
also, chek the one with the poll, i left a little something for u to dissect...i think...or it might have agreed with u...i forget

 

[Sophie777]

Yes sub, I don't believe there is 'nothing'. I just don't believe any religon devised thousands of years ago when we thought the world was flat has the answers.

By the way wilmo. When answering agnostics and atheists questions on the existence of a God, it doesn't prove anything if you use the bible as evidence. Simply because we don't believe the bible was written by anybody but 12 weirdo's with a 'how to make a religion' guide. Now, God if he exists, would not pick someone's prayer to be answered. If he did, then this would be trivial, unfair and unreasonable. You cannot answer this question with 'God is all knowing and all seeing' as this is how the religion drew you in in the first place.

 

[Sophie777]

I will not rule out the possibility of life on other planets because we are only one tiny planet in one tiny galaxy of a big large universe. But i think its interesting how precisely placed our little planet is. That doesnt prove that a God specifically placed us there, but I think he did.

But i also don't see how finding life on other planets would disprove God exists... maybe thats just me who doesnt see it though...

In fact, it would disprove the bible as there is no reference to other life on other planets. If there had been life on other planets, it would have been mentioned. Why wasn't it? Because the civilians who wrote it didn't know anything about this.

By the way, did everyone see the little people that look like gorillas that they found fossils of? What do you say to that?! We were gorillas!!

 

[waterfowl]

Originally Posted by Not-That-Bright
* So what are the rest of us here for? What about the ones living in remote villages who will live their entire lives without even hearing of your god?

Originally Posted by Wilmo
I believe that all people can partly choose their salvation (it does have biblical reference but im sooooo to lazy to explain it here because its more of a christian thing than a general information thing), so everybody "can" be saved, but not everybody will choose to be. If you remain unconvinced that their is a God, obviously you wont choose to be saved by him.

About the villagers: Is it not concievable that an omniscient God would find a way to inform people of his existance some other way? (Again i have biblical reference, but its not something that I know heaps about, so there would be no point in discussing something i dont really understand yet)

It says somewhere in Revelations that those people that never heard about God in their lifetime, will rise again before Jesus returns and get the chance to accept him as their Lord.

Originally Posted by Wilmo
I will not rule out the possibility of life on other planets because we are only one tiny planet in one tiny galaxy of a big large universe. But i think its interesting how precisely placed our little planet is. That doesnt prove that a God specifically placed us there, but I think he did.

But i also don't see how finding life on other planets would disprove God exists... maybe thats just me who doesnt see it though...


Originally Posted by Sophie777
In fact, it would disprove the bible as there is no reference to other life on other planets. If there had been life on other planets, it would have been mentioned. Why wasn't it? Because the civilians who wrote it didn't know anything about this.

There may be no refernce to life on other planets, but it says that God created the Heavens (everything beyond earth) and the Earth.

Originally Posted by Not-That-Bright
So it is fair that a murderer who repents before their death be given the same place in heaven as the people he killed? If so i wonder how many innocent victims have gotten a shock when their murderer has appeared in heaven with them...

As Wilmo said there are no grudges or hate in Heaven, and I'm pretty sure I read (in the Bible) that Heaven is actually startified in some sense. Ie. people who were strong devoted Christians all their life and did heaps of stuff for God are higher in Heaven, whereas people such as like murderers who repent just b4 death have a lower position. Although if ur in Heaven I don't think you'd care all that much!