Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

I can say that god doesn't exist in the realm of what is possible.

I can say that you're a brain, in a glass tube, being fed stimuli by a scientist, you just 'think' you exist, and it is as justified as the strongest argument that a God exists.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Does God exist... do aliens exist.. do we exist? what is existance? how is it measured? and really what benefit does anyone gain from arguing this back and forward repeatedly (other than sadistic pleasure)?

Well I was hoping some people would have some arguments as to the existence of God so I and others could consider them seriously, engage in some critical thinking and have a productive discussion.. but the only thing that has happened is that the believers have constantly reiterated "I believe in God" without any justification, and myself and others have concluded due to lack of evidence that the only credible position to take is that of agnosticism.

 

[dark_angel]

Of course it's possible for God to exist! But that aside, the onus is not on non-believers to show that God does not exist, we must start with that presumption that God does not exist and wait for you to prove that God does exist.

isnt it just logical to think that u cant prove gods existence, because if u could, there would be no point of god?

do u really think, that if there was a god, that he would show himself to humanity in some way.

OFCOURSE u cant prove that he exists, perhaps that is the test that humanity has to take, but rather u cant prove that he does not exist either.

So there is no arguement, let us believe what we want to believe, but if u cant prove that god dosent exist, then isnt that justification enough for us to believe?

the aspect of religion, however that is where the arguements really arise.

But they arise because man has his own views on religion, and perhaps a small part on the religion itself.

i think that u will be waiting a long time for that, infact mankind will die before that is answered, as i said there is not point in proving that god exists, because then there would be no point in a god would there?

 

[dark_angel]

I can say that god doesn't exist in the realm of what is possible.

I can say that you're a brain, in a glass tube, being fed stimuli by a scientist, you just 'think' you exist, and it is as justified as the strongest argument that a God exists.

fuck man ur starting to make me laugh now, my entire arguement is based on epistemology, or lack of it btw. Where the hell did i say that the justification for my arguement was that just because i exist that god exists

what kind of stupid shit is that?!?!?

if this is a serious discussion, and i think that it is otherwise i would not have posted so many times, stop saying shit without justification.

WHERE THE HELL IS UR JUSTIFICATION EH!!?!?!?! QUOTE ME, I DOUBLE DARE U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND U STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED OR TRIED TO ANSWER MY ARGUEMENT

SO IF U HAVE SOMETHING POSITIVE TO CONTRIBUTE, BY ALL MEANS POST, BUT IF UR GONNA CONTRADICT URSELF AND SAY MEANINGLESS CRAP THEN STOP POSTING

ur gonna get owned if u dont answer my argument, and i dont see anyone even trying............

 

[MoonlightSonata]

isnt it just logical to think that u cant prove gods existence, because if u could, there would be no point of god?

How would we being aware of God's existence remove the "point of God"?

do u really think, that if there was a god, that he would show himself to humanity in some way.

I don't know I'm not a God. Why not?

OFCOURSE u cant prove that he exists, perhaps that is the test that humanity has to take, but rather u cant prove that he does not exist either.

Really? Try this on for size:
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect.
4. But the universe is not perfect.
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe.
6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist.

 

[dark_angel]

Well I was hoping some people would have some arguments as to the existence of God so I and others could consider them seriously, engage in some critical thinking and have a productive discussion.. but the only thing that has happened is that the believers have constantly reiterated "I believe in God" without any justification, and myself and others have concluded due to lack of evidence that the only credible position to take is that of agnosticism.

hahahah you say that but this is not the question, the question is really "if u cant prove that god does not exist, then y ask if God can exist if it is entirely subjective?"

 

[MoonlightSonata]

hahahah you say that but this is not the question, the question is really "if u cant prove that god does not exist, then y ask if God can exist if it is entirely subjective?"

Please rephrase that in a coherent sentence.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

"Allah allah mohammed Tik tik Tullaboo"

 

[dark_angel]

"Allah allah mohammed Tik tik Tullaboo"

i'm not muslim

 

[dark_angel]

Please rephrase that in a coherent sentence.

ok you're trying ur formality shit on me arent u? hahaha ok then

If it is in your opinion that god does not exist, simply because we do not have any tangible evidence to prove this otherwise, then why are you questioning an aspect that has obvious subjective connotations, ie the answer lies in the mind of the believer, as there is no real fruit or positive bearing that can be obtained by asking the question "does god exist?" which as i said is dynamic.

Furthurmore, if god were to exist and god were perfect, and humanity knew of gods existence, then god would not be perfect, because he would have laid eyes upon something that was not perfect (ie humanity) and hence god cannot exist if humanity knew of his existence.

The last bit is obvious bullshit like the one u pulled off earlier, but ive done philosophy and the error is obvious, it lies within the first statement, i cant remember the proper word..ah shit oh well but there are literally hundreds of arguements like the one u have mentioned that try to prove that god both exists and doesnt exist.

so dont try any of that crap....lol

 

[dark_angel]

How would we being aware of God's existence remove the "point of God"?



I don't know I'm not a God. Why not?

because if u did know, u wouldnt be a god because a god cant be that stupid...lol



Really? Try this on for size:
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect.
4. But the universe is not perfect.
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe.
6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist.

1. yes as i said, u dont know that god is perfect, if u do then i would like to know y, or better yet prove it and that is the end of 80 pages of posts.

2. how do u know he created the universe. (i beleive he did but u dont know do u)

3. hmmm this one ive read an anti-arguement to before, but i cant remember, ur lucky i have a bad memory otherwise i would've owned u on this point

4. how do u know, it may be a perfect balance, i suggest u read up on quantum mechanics

5. phffft ok wateva

6. likewise



I tried it on for size, it didnt fit because it had holes, but if an arguement has holes it is not an arguement but a hidden bias

SO KEEPING IN MIND THAT I AM ONLY 17 YEARS OLD AND THAT YOU ARE A UNIVERSITY STUDENT, GIMME SOME EVIDENCE TO REJECT MY ARGUEMENT OR IF U CANT I THINK I JUST OWNED UR ENTIRE THREAD

sorry im just not that formal, i hope u dont mind


hahahahaha i'm just kiddin were all friends here, except that "not-too-bright" guy i think he might try and kill me...

lol

Some one try and answer my question properly without any bullshit please, its a matter of epistemology in my opinion.

 

[inasero]

Really? Try this on for size:
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect.
4. But the universe is not perfect.
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe.
6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist.

statements 1 and 2 are true. As for 3, obviously thats false because God created Satan which is where your whole argument breaks down. The reason is that God didn't want to create a garden of Eden with Adam and Eve unquestioningly following Him. He wanted to give them this gift called "free will" so that they would love God of their own accord and understand the nature of their relationship with God. Think about it, if you were God and you wanted to create an Earth and people to live in it so that they could love you, would you just give them a one-minded brain with no capacity to sin? Of course not! Because as I mentioned, it wouldnt truly be a voluntary decision to love, therefore this love wouldn't be genuine.

 

[dark_angel]

statements 1 and 2 are true. As for 3, obviously thats false because God created Satan which is where your whole argument breaks down. The reason is that God didn't want to create a garden of Eden with Adam and Eve unquestioningly following Him. He wanted to give them this gift called "free will" so that they would love God of their own accord and understand the nature of their relationship with God. Think about it, if you were God and you wanted to create an Earth and people to live in it so that they could love you, would you just give them a one-minded brain with no capacity to sin? Of course not! Because as I mentioned, it wouldnt truly be a voluntary decision to love, therefore this love wouldn't be genuine.

Yes there u go, thankyou inasero, i think i better refresh my rebuttle techniques


hahahha so there we go, can anyone disprove my arguement now?

 

[dark_angel]

just thougt i'd refresh ur memory:



hmmmm you can say that god does not exist, but if you can do that then you can also ascertain that there are some things in this universe that you cannot know. Black holes (or singularities as you will) cannot be examined passed the event horizon. Which means that we have been denied knowledge, whatever that may be. You cannot be sure of anything in this universe, the laws of physics break down and cannot be applied in a singularity, time and space cease to exist.

And when most of the world is obsessed with politics or society we fail to realise just how insignificant we really are.

so i pose the question, if u cant be certain of whats inside a black hole which there are millions floating in space this very moment, how can u be certain that god does not exist?

and hence if u CANNOT be certain that god does not exist, isnt that a good enough reason to say that he CAN exist, if so then isnt that a valid reason to beleive in an omnibenevolent, omnipresent god?

 

[inasero]

lol this is way beyond me, like the script from the "architect" scene in matrix reloaded

 

[dark_angel]

lol this is way beyond me, like the script from the "architect" scene in matrix reloaded

hahahah as if man i couldnt understand the architect scene either (even though i watched it at least 5 times)

are u in uni btw?

 

[dark_angel]

Because my life is pervaded by annoying christians who love themselves because of their moral righteousness and the belief in their own goodness. Well, you aren't a good person jus because you believe in God!

You asked me a question, I am interested in the existence of God as I am interested in how religious people can have blind faith in something that has no documented evidence for its existence as truth. How religious people can possibly look at their argument and think it is logical? Uh, it isn't. The entire point of religion is throwing logic in the trash can an believing in something as it is easier to do that that fear dying and going to nowhere. The only reason that you aren't swayed by us trying to argue with you is because you a blind to facts, if you allowed yourself to actually listen to the real world and not the one you have created then perhaps you wouldn't be able to believe.

I am amazed at the amount of peoplle who allow themselves to be driven by such a discriiminatory religion as christianity.

i'm driven by religion, so answer my arguement if u can, i beleive that it is logical enough

 

[Sophie777]

just thougt i'd refresh ur memory:



hmmmm you can say that god does not exist, but if you can do that then you can also ascertain that there are some things in this universe that you cannot know. Black holes (or singularities as you will) cannot be examined passed the event horizon. Which means that we have been denied knowledge, whatever that may be. You cannot be sure of anything in this universe, the laws of physics break down and cannot be applied in a singularity, time and space cease to exist.

And when most of the world is obsessed with politics or society we fail to realise just how insignificant we really are.

so i pose the question, if u cant be certain of whats inside a black hole which there are millions floating in space this very moment, how can u be certain that god does not exist?

and hence if u CANNOT be certain that god does not exist, isnt that a good enough reason to say that he CAN exist, if so then isnt that a valid reason to beleive in an omnibenevolent, omnipresent god?

Not for me. Just because I don't have evidence enough to prove to you God doesn't exist, and just because humans lack ultimate knowledge doesn't mean we should then believe God exists. I believe we don't know and we won't ever know, it isn't information that is available to us. Yes, 'God' may exist. But no, for the reason that he 'may' exist, this is not reason enough for me to put blind faith in his existence.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

ok you're trying ur formality shit on me arent u? hahaha ok then

If it is in your opinion that god does not exist, simply because we do not have any tangible evidence to prove this otherwise, then why are you questioning an aspect that has obvious subjective connotations, ie the answer lies in the mind of the believer, as there is no real fruit or positive bearing that can be obtained by asking the question "does god exist?" which as i said is dynamic.

No the answer is not in the mind of the believer. It is either true or false.

Furthurmore, if god were to exist and god were perfect, and humanity knew of gods existence, then god would not be perfect, because he would have laid eyes upon something that was not perfect (ie humanity) and hence god cannot exist if humanity knew of his existence.

Okay that makes no sense. If God were to "lay eyes on something imperfect" he would not exist? How can God cease to exist simply because humanity knows of his existence?!

The last bit is obvious bullshit like the one u pulled off earlier

Kindly refer to what you're talking about.

but ive done philosophy and the error is obvious, it lies within the first statement, i cant remember the proper word..ah shit oh well but there are literally hundreds of arguements like the one u have mentioned that try to prove that god both exists and doesnt exist.

In other words, I've made an obvious error which you can't identify. Fantastic. Incidentally the error you are most likely referring to is that of the excluded middle. But I am not trying to prove that God both does not exist and does exist. I am saying that we lack evidence either way, and therefore it is not a valid position to hold to believe either, though the more rational approach out of believing and not believing would be not to believe (burden of proof).

so dont try any of that crap....lol

Well when you can't actually refute anything I say, go on about how you've done philosophy, you can't actually identify any of my errors, and perpetualy call it "crap," I'm not shaken

[Incidentally if you want to have a credentials boast, I have also done philosophy, 2 years worth at university level, at both USYD and UNSW, attaining 3 distinctions.]

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Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata:
Really? Try this on for size:
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect.
4. But the universe is not perfect.
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe.
6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist.

Of course this argument has flaws (though you didn't pick them up) but the whole point of this example is that there are arguments which go to proving that God does not exist - so to shut yourself out by saying we cannot prove God does not exist, well there may be strong arguments as to why.

1. yes as i said, u dont know that god is perfect, if u do then i would like to know y, or better yet prove it and that is the end of 80 pages of posts.

I was under the impression Christians thought God was perfect. They don't think that? Good, that explains a lot <looks around at the world>.

2. how do u know he created the universe. (i beleive he did but u dont know do u)

Again this is part of the definitions of God!

3. hmmm this one ive read an anti-arguement to before, but i cant remember, ur lucky i have a bad memory otherwise i would've owned u on this point

Translation: I don't have anything valuable to say here.

4. how do u know, it may be a perfect balance, i suggest u read up on quantum mechanics

I suppose people getting killed and maimed and raped and tortured... that's not imperfect at all is it?

I tried it on for size, it didnt fit because it had holes, but if an arguement has holes it is not an arguement but a hidden bias

Holes, as I've discussed, you fail to make out.

SO KEEPING IN MIND THAT I AM ONLY 17 YEARS OLD AND THAT YOU ARE A UNIVERSITY STUDENT, GIMME SOME EVIDENCE TO REJECT MY ARGUEMENT OR IF U CANT I THINK I JUST OWNED UR ENTIRE THREAD

You're only 17? Oh sorry - that must explain your maturity, I'll keep that in mind. As for you "owning the entire thread," (a) the point of this thread is not to "own" each other or the thread, (b) what is your argument? I'll gladly pull it apart for you.

Some one try and answer my question properly without any bullshit please, its a matter of epistemology in my opinion.

I hardly think the reasoning I have posted throughout here is "bullshit." You said you've done some philosophy right? Then you should know that is one of the worst fallacies of argument.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Originally posted by MoonlightSonata:
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect.
4. But the universe is not perfect.
5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe.
6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist.

statements 1 and 2 are true.

Good.

As for 3, obviously thats false because God created Satan which is where your whole argument breaks down.

1. Don't argue Biblical stories as facts
2. Don't then use these "facts" to dispute a principle or reason

It's like you saying, the law of gravity will dictate that if I through a basketball into the air, it will fall down. Then I respond, "well in 1990 I saw Michael Jordan through a basketball into the air and it didn't come down."

The reason is that God didn't want to create a garden of Eden with Adam and Eve unquestioningly following Him. He wanted to give them this gift called "free will" so that they would love God of their own accord and understand the nature of their relationship with God. Think about it, if you were God and you wanted to create an Earth and people to live in it so that they could love you, would you just give them a one-minded brain with no capacity to sin? Of course not! Because as I mentioned, it wouldnt truly be a voluntary decision to love, therefore this love wouldn't be genuine.

And yet God is supposed to be ominscient, thus he knew it would all go awry anyway. HMMMMM.