Does God Exist? (4 Viewers)

[MoonlightSonata]

hahahah as if man i couldnt understand the architect scene either (even though i watched it at least 5 times)

The architect scene was dissappointingly simple! I was hoping for some twist but it didn't happen

But anyway

you can say that god does not exist,

That's not what I'm saying, for one.

but if you can do that then you can also ascertain that there are some things in this universe that you cannot know. Black holes (or singularities as you will) cannot be examined passed the event horizon. Which means that we have been denied knowledge, whatever that may be. You cannot be sure of anything in this universe, the laws of physics break down and cannot be applied in a singularity, time and space cease to exist.

Yes...

And when most of the world is obsessed with politics or society we fail to realise just how insignificant we really are.

Yes...

so i pose the question, if u cant be certain of whats inside a black hole which there are millions floating in space this very moment, how can u be certain that god does not exist?

You can't be.

and hence if u CANNOT be certain that god does not exist, isnt that a good enough reason to say that he CAN exist,

Yes, obviously!

if so then isnt that a valid reason to beleive in an omnibenevolent, omnipresent god?

NO! This is where your reasoning goes completely wrong --

1. You can't be certain God does not exist
2. It is possible God does exist
3. Therefore, there is a good reason to believe God does exist

NO! The jump from premise 2 to 3 is invalid. Simply because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that it is TRUE or that there is good reason for it! It is possible that there are aliens. It doesn't mean we should believe in aliens. It is possible that the flying goat-God Gorgamel exists! That is not good reason for us to believe in him.

Additionally, I noticed you were describing God as only "ominbenevolent" and "omnipresent" - have you dropped the "omnipotent" part from your definition of God? Have you dropped the "omniscient" part from your definition?

 

[acmilan]

This probably has nothing to do with the question of God's existence but I wish the Ethiopians will let everyone see the casing that was originally handed down by God to Moses to hold the 10 commandments. Apparantly they think they have it, however no one is allowed anywhere near the tomb where it lays as it is surrounded by a fence, it is guarded by people with machine guns and if someone tries to enter a bell will sound that will results in 300 Ethiopians chasing after you with pitchforks and machine guns

 

[MoonlightSonata]

dark_angel, you are essentially making an argument from incredulity.


Claim:
It is inconceivable that ____ (fill in the blank) could have originated naturally. Therefore, it must have been created.

This argument, also known as the argument from ignorance or "god of the gaps," is implicit in very many different creationist arguments. In particular, it is behind all arguments against abiogenesis and any and all claims of intelligent design.


Response:
1. Really, the claim is "I can't conceive that. . ." Others might be able to find a natural explanation; in many cases, they already have. Nobody knows everything, so it is unreasonable to conclude that something is impossible just because you don't know it. "The peril of negative arguments is that they may rest on our lack of knowledge, rather than on positive results." [Behe 2003]

2. The argument from incredulity creates a God of the Gaps. Gods were responsible for lightning until we determined natural causes for lightning; for infectious diseases until we found bacteria and viruses; for mental illness until we found biochemical causes for them. God is confined only to those parts of the universe we don't know about, and that keeps shrinking. - ref

 

[Vezzellda]

Ok, firstly I'd like to say that I have been treating you guys with nothing but repsect, and I haven't been swearing my head of and attacking people like some others have been doing. Please guys, stay cool.

Secondly dark_angel, your posts are confusing, I find it hard to work out which side you are barracking for, you seem to contradict yourself sometimes.

Thirdly, had a look at that Sikhism side that you say you believe in:
2 of their "philosophies":

-"The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God. This can be accomplished by following the teachings of the Guru, meditation on the Holy Name and performance of acts of service and charity."
-"The five cardinal vices are; Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (worldly attachment) and Ahankar (pride). If one can overcome these, they will achieve salvation."

Ok, I ask you, how, by doing anything can we achieve salvation? How can people think that by making ourselves "good" enough we can please God? God is huger and more powerful than we could ever imagine and our pathetic attempts to follow commands and perform "acts of service and charity" can never match up to God's standard which is perfection. They are filthy rags to God. The only way we can be right with God is by acknowledging our failings, our weaknesses, our inadequacies, our constant desire to go against God and realise that only God can save us, there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God. This is what separates Christianity from all other "religions." All other belief systems say, you must do this, you must pray 66 times a day, you must touch a special relic, you must make a pilgrimage, you must give to the poor, you must overcome vices like lust, anger, greed, wordly attachment and pride (as in the above quote). But Christianity says, it has all been done, it has all been done by Jesus, the price for our constant failings has been paid, there is nothing that we can do to make God make us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. Please guys, think about this.

Because my life is pervaded by annoying christians who love themselves because of their moral righteousness and the belief in their own goodness. Well, you aren't a good person jus because you believe in God!

Following on from my argument above, there is therefore no way that Christians can be justified in saying "oh i'm so morally upstanding" or whatever it is. That shows that they haven't understood the message. A Christian's life is characterised by humility. They recognise that Jesus has died in their place and there is absolutely no works they can do to make themselves "righteous."

And thank you inasero for clearing up the free will thing. In the beginning God decribed everything he created as "very good" but he also gave man a unique and intelligent mind to make their own decisions. Love can only be genuine when it is a choice. Otherwise we would all be robots and you guys wouldn't like that would you!?

 

[Jase]

So basically, moonlight is arguing the Christian God doesn't exist, while dark_angel is arguing that the Christian God does exist? Or are we talking 'god' in general....

 

[superbird]

all i know is that christians in this thread are being flamed for believing in God

 

[acmilan]

In general, Christian God = Jewish God = Muslim God. So its not only the Christian God thats being discussed.

 

[Sophie777]

You aren't being flamed from believing in God. Don't post your beliefs if you don't want them up to scrutiny.

You are in a 'does God exist' forum and people are posing arguments as to the faults in the argument of the bible being fact. Establishing whether The Bible, christianity and other religions are correct is vital in coming closer to the conclusion of whether God does exist.

Even though he probably exists outside any of these religions.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

So basically, moonlight is arguing the Christian God doesn't exist, while dark_angel is arguing that the Christian God does exist? Or are we talking 'god' in general....

No read some posts and you'll see I'm agnostic

 

[Tambubs]

truly i think there are always going to be two sides to this question. we are all given our own rights to say what we think, i just hate the fact that people that believe in god think its an offense if people like me say "well i believe in science, if god came down and told me he was real.. then i would believe, cause all science has done is shown certain people that evolution is the answer"... yet do 'god believers' ever think that maybe WE are offended when they prattle on about god.........

 

[joujou_84]

God is huger and more powerful than we could ever imagine and our pathetic attempts to follow commands and perform "acts of service and charity" can never match up to God's standard which is perfection. They are filthy rags to God. The only way we can be right with God is by acknowledging our failings, our weaknesses, our inadequacies, our constant desire to go against God and realise that only God can save us, there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God. This is what separates Christianity from all other "religions." All other belief systems say, you must do this, you must pray 66 times a day, you must touch a special relic, you must make a pilgrimage, you must give to the poor, you must overcome vices like lust, anger, greed, wordly attachment and pride (as in the above quote). But Christianity says, it has all been done, it has all been done by Jesus, the price for our constant failings has been paid, there is nothing that we can do to make God make us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. Please guys, think about this.
QUOTE]

but if u do nothing in this life to acknowledge ur god, then why do u have one. if everything u do means nothing to god coz its "filthy rags", then whats the point in having a god. u can be a good person and have morals without having a god. so if jesus did everything for u then does that mean u can just sit back and do nothing ur whole life. of course we are nothing compared to god. and what we do (praying, paying to charity) acknowledges our belief in god. if u love someone u show them u love them......u dont just say it and then sit around for the rest of ur life and do nothign to show them this love. im not trying to be rude or anything but explain how u can believe in god and then do nothing to acknowledge his existence, that dosent make sense.

 

[dark_angel]

So basically, moonlight is arguing the Christian God doesn't exist, while dark_angel is arguing that the Christian God does exist? Or are we talking 'god' in general....

I'm not christian, and there is no 'christian' god, perhaps god can be viewed in the'christian way, i dont know about that. god is one (or say a single entity) there is only one god. (in my religion)

and i do beleive that the answer to this question is bivalent, ie either god does exist, or he dosent, but i also think its common sense to suggest that the answer to this question is personal.

But u guys cant say that god dosent exist, just like the reality of this universe, how do u know u are not plugged into some 'dream world', the truth of the matter is that u cannot, episistemology-wise, simmilarly in a singularity, you have been robbed of knowledge.

there are just some things that u cannot know

so if u cannot know certain things, u cant say god dosent exist.

whatever the answer is, it cannot be answered as a 'yes' or a 'no', thats the basis of religion.

just dont say that god dosent exist, because u cant prove that (even though u cant prove that he does exist either)

as heaps of people have said, its an entirely subjective manner

 

[dark_angel]

Not for me. Just because I don't have evidence enough to prove to you God doesn't exist, and just because humans lack ultimate knowledge doesn't mean we should then believe God exists. I believe we don't know and we won't ever know, it isn't information that is available to us. Yes, 'God' may exist. But no, for the reason that he 'may' exist, this is not reason enough for me to put blind faith in his existence.

well ofcourse, thats what i'm trying to say, you may have your own opinion, and that is essentially what makes humanity different in the first place. If u choose whether to beleive in god or not to beleive in god, its entirely up to you, this is the beauty of the arguement. For me, the fact that u cant prove that he dosent exist only adds to why i beleive in god, it is not at all the basis from which my faith in god lies.

my reasons are different, and so are yours.

I should let everyone know that i am a very scientific minded person, science is basically my life right now, cos i got nothing else much to do. Science and mathematics both (and perhaps philosophy)

I believe in god. I believe in evolution. I believe in maths, science, etc.

 

[Ro.]

God does exist. ive seen supernatural things happen that are too real to deny. like pople healed and stuff.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

well ofcourse, thats what i'm trying to say, you may have your own opinion, and that is essentially what makes humanity different in the first place. If u choose whether to beleive in god or not to beleive in god, its entirely up to you, this is the beauty of the arguement. For me, the fact that u cant prove that he dosent exist only adds to why i beleive in god, it is not at all the basis from which my faith in god lies.

my reasons are different, and so are yours.

I should let everyone know that i am a very scientific minded person, science is basically my life right now, cos i got nothing else much to do. Science and mathematics both (and perhaps philosophy)

I believe in god. I believe in evolution. I believe in maths, science, etc.

Ah so now we come to it. You can't prove either way, good.

So the basis for your belief in God is...? This is getting pretty tiring now, seeing as all believers have come to the same conclusion: I can't prove that God exists, but I still believe in God for "personal reasons" (reasons to stupid to post because people know they would get them refuted).

 

[Tambubs]

well re reading responses it has come to my knowledge that most people are splurging everything out on the table from the back of their mind in almost an attempt to not only sway the person reading to believe what they are saying, but to talk them selved into believeing what they are saying......

please tell me if i am wrong, i don't mind if there is a god, i don't mind if there isn't a god, i'm on this earth to live like all the other mammals and organisms that inhabit this earth.... because when my mummy and daddy went to the stalk, i was the cheapest one they could afford.... but also because thats what reproduction produces.... life.

 

[dark_angel]

NO! This is where your reasoning goes completely wrong --

1. You can't be certain God does not exist
2. It is possible God does exist
3. Therefore, there is a good reason to believe God does exist

NO! The jump from premise 2 to 3 is invalid. Simply because it is POSSIBLE does not mean that it is TRUE or that there is good reason for it! It is possible that there are aliens. It doesn't mean we should believe in aliens. It is possible that the flying goat-God Gorgamel exists! That is not good reason for us to believe in him.

Additionally, I noticed you were describing God as only "ominbenevolent" and "omnipresent" - have you dropped the "omnipotent" part from your definition of God? Have you dropped the "omniscient" part from your definition?

I did not say it was true!!!!!!!!!

This is where ur arguement is invalid. You keep assuming that just because it is possible, i'm stating that it is true. Thats not what i'm saying at all. What im saying is that it is possible, u cannot deny it. SO IF U CANT PROVE THAT HE DOES NOT EXIST, let humanity believe what they want to believe.

let me tell u why i excluded those words, u cannot narrate or describe god, one who tries is a fool (so i think i should stop altogether and just call god, god )



And why can't it be a good enough reason?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

You keep assuming that just because it is possible, i'm stating that it is true. Thats not what i'm saying at all.

Good, because this post of yours sounded awfully like that:

if u CANNOT be certain that god does not exist, isnt that a good enough reason to say that he CAN exist, if so then isnt that a valid reason to beleive in an omnibenevolent, omnipresent god?

-----------------------------------------------

What im saying is that it is possible, u cannot deny it. SO IF U CANT PROVE THAT HE DOES NOT EXIST, let humanity believe what they want to believe.

This is very different to "if you can't prove he does not exist, then isnt that a valid reason to beleive in an omnibenevolent, omnipresent god" as you previously stated.

 

[dark_angel]

ok you want evidence

here is evidence

http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gop-012.htm

let me just add that you probably will dismiss this, but i assure u this is no bullshit, later in my lifetime i am hoping to go to the gurudwara in pakistan to view Panja Sahib.

But then again, u might dismiss this, nay you will dismiss whatever tangible evidence i put forth, u will refute it somehow, its just human nature, so u should realise yourself that by posting such a question, that perhaps it was your attempt at disproving that god exists. Frankly i dont really care what you think the answer is, because as i said it is personal.

but just dont say that he dosent exist, because u cant prove that

i might try to find some more 'evidence' if i can, but i have to get in touch with my own religion as well, i have not had time in the HSC.

Oh yes, i'm sorry if i got heated up or anything, it is not my nature, its prolli cos i'm bored or something, so i apologise if i caused any 'inconveneince' to any of you.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

you post replies way too fast to be taking anything that we say seriously...