Does God Exist? (1 Viewer)

joujou_84

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wait wait so some of u Christain ppl r saying that no matter wat sins u commit god will forgive u coz jesus died on the cross for u. then y r u alive. wats ur purpose on earth? and can someobody like answer me this time. i swear im being ignored.
 

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inasero said:
In fact I can provide evidence that the bible is historically true. Then would you believe in Christ?
Claim:
The Bible's accuracy on various scientific and historical points shows its overall accuracy.

Response:
1. The accuracy of the Bible is not remarkable. All of its accurate points can be explained by simple observation of nature or by selective interpretation of scriptures.

2. Accuracy on individual points does not indicate overall accuracy. Just about every thesis that is wrong overall still has some accurate points in it.

3. Claims about accuracy assume that the purpose of the Bible is to document scientific data. There is not the slightest indication that the Bible was ever intended as a scientific textbook. It is intended to teach people about God; even those who claim scientific accuracy for it use it with that intent. For at least some of the Bible's teachings, scientific accuracy is unnecessary and perhaps even counterproductive.

4. The Bible is not entirely accurate. If its value is made to depend on scientific accuracy, it becomes valueless when people find errors in it, as some people invariably will.

5. If occasional scientific accuracy shows overall accuracy of the Bible, then the same conclusion must be granted to the Qur'an, Zend Avesta, and several other works from other religions, all of which can make the same claims to scientific accuracy. - ref
 

dark_angel

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joujou_84 said:
wait wait so some of u Christain ppl r saying that no matter wat sins u commit god will forgive u coz jesus died on the cross for u. then y r u alive. wats ur purpose on earth? and can someobody like answer me this time. i swear im being ignored.

yes i hear u, i'm not christian, but i was about to ask exactly the same thing.
 

joujou_84

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inasero said:
thats the thing, He created the world knowing that man would fall
QUOTE]

but that contradicts the bible. ive read the bible and wat ur saying now contradicts the bible. in the bible it says that god made adam then he was very upset with wat he had made (after cain killed abel), he regretted making humans (im not making this up) but he liked Noah so he told Noah to build a boat so that he could kill everyone else. now sorry to be rude but i wouldnt believe in a god that didnt know the outcome of his actions. i wouldnt believe in a god that makes mistakes and "regrets" his decisons. If im wrong then plz explain
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
Doesn't that sound (a) stupid, (b) cruel and (c) pointless?
Which leads to one of the other big questions of theology (it's childish, but it's still important) - God is omnipotent, right? So why didn't he erradicate evil before it even existed? For the people who believe in a physical God and Devil (if there are any of those people left) why didn't God kill the Devil? If he can't, then he's not omnipotent, and not deserving of worship.
 

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hmmm i think i should highlight some of the similarities and differences between christianity (and judaism) and sikhism.

Although no direct references are made to these two religions, there are references to the holy books of the Semitic religions and their scriptures referred to in the Guru Granth Sahib as 'Kateb' (Taurat: The Book of Moses, Zabur: The Book of David, Injil: New Testament and Quran). It is likely that Guru Nanak met Christian and Jewish missionaries during his extensive travels to the west. Christian missionaries were also active in the southern parts of India visited by Guru Nanak. Because the Sikh Gurus were involved in extensive missionary work to convert people to Sikhism, they concentrated on the dominant religions of the masses at that time, which did not include Christianity and Judaism in the east.

similarities

Submission to the will of God, Hukam.

Khalsa brotherhood and sacrament.

Brotherhood of man.

Fatherhood of God and salvation by grace.

Jewish emphasis on 'The Name'.

Differences

Salvation for the 'choosen people'. Sikhism believes anyone can achieve salvation irrespective of the religion that they follow if they endear God in their heart and daily actions.

Christian concept of Jesus as son of God. Sikhism regards all as the children of God.

Infant baptism. In Sikhism child baptism into the Khalsa brotherhood is discouraged. One should only become a Khalsa when they are able to fully understand the duties and responsibilities.

Special Day for worship. There is no special day like Sunday or Sabbath for worship.

Heaven and Hell as physical entities. In Sikhism there are no such physical places. Hell is equivalent to the cycles of births and deaths and heaven is equivalent to the soul merging with God.

Priests. Guru Gobind Singh abolished the priestly class making Sikhism free from their weaknesses and egos, the only priest is the Living Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib which contains all the knowledge and which is available for reading by any Sikh.
 

joujou_84

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Monkey Butler said:
Which leads to one of the other big questions of theology (it's childish, but it's still important) - God is omnipotent, right? So why didn't he erradicate evil before it even existed? For the people who believe in a physical God and Devil (if there are any of those people left) why didn't God kill the Devil? If he can't, then he's not omnipotent, and not deserving of worship.
ok but that has nothing to do with whether god exists or not. its becoming harder to debate gods existence with everyone giving views based on religious belief, evn though i believe in god, i cant agree with wat some believers are saying coz im not a follower of their religion. and this question goes back to religious belief. ......... for each religion there is a different reason for why god allowed the devil to live. now i want a christian to answer my previous question. i wont let it slide.
 

dark_angel

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joujou_84 said:
ok but that has nothing to do with whether god exists or not. its becoming harder to debate gods existence with everyone giving views based on religious belief, evn though i believe in god, i cant agree with wat some believers are saying coz im not a follower of their religion. and this question goes back to religious belief. ......... for each religion there is a different reason for why god allowed the devil to live. now i want a christian to answer my previous question. i wont let it slide.
i definately agree here, but i would also like to add, if i may how is it that you can be fogiven from your sins by another person, there is some priest that you go to and if u confess he will clear your sins, but how can this be?

"Of all the religions, the best religion is to repeat God's Name and to do pious deeds. Of all the religious rites, the best rite is to remove the filth of evil intellect by association with the saints." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 266)
 

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dark_angel said:
wtf, hey i dont see noahs ark floating anywhere, do u?!?!?

as i said whatever i state as evidence will always be disregarded.

Even if gods messenger appeared before ur eyes, would u beleive in it, or would u say its some sort of optical illusion.

let me tell u something, there are some things in this universe that u cannot know of. Dont trust your senses. The very computer screen u are watching now is flickering at a rate faster than your eye can computate.

U would not know if a picture came up in one sweep of electrons on the screen, you could not know because ur eye ( or perhaps our brain) cannot computate that fast.

i think Descartes summed it up pretty well.

"Cogito Ergo Sum" i think therefore i am, the only think he was certain of was that he existed, even if that denied him of all other knowledge.


i trust my senses, but i acknowledge that there are some things that i will never know or more importantly CANNOT know of eg black hole singularity, wateva.

ah crap i got off track

yes well what i'm trying to say is that do u have any evidence to prove that god does not exist?

if not, then i will kindly disregard ur post. :)
Noah's Ark? That was not the point of my (admittedly glib) comment. However, Noah's Ark (or rather the lack of it) is no proof of any story either way - it is a story, nothing more. Perhaps even one of those parables to life that Christians are so quick to point out to explain inconsistencies in the Bible.

Whatever 'evidence' you provided would be disregarded because of its very nature - THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD.

I don't know if I would believe it [if a 'messenger of God' appeared before my eyes]. It hasn't happened, and it is extremely unlikely to; therefore that was a rather uninspiring example to use.

Of course there's things in the Universe that I don't know about - that's a rather sweeping statement that doesn't bolster your argument much. At any rate, the computer screen that I am observing right now is not actually flickering (as in CRT displays) because it is, in fact, an LCD display.

I fail to see how that has any bearing at all on this discussion. Things happen faster than our brain can COMPUTE instantaneously (in fact we recieve the information miliseconds later from our BRAIN, which is where the information is processed, not the EYE, which simply gathers the information); that I agree with. But that has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion, as I have said before, except in relation to you saying that you trust your senses but there's things you don't and never will know about. Fine. We can call that a fait accompli and move on.

Evidence to disprove God's existence? Plenty. The distinct LACK of evidence that proves God's existence for one (and yes, that is evidence); for another, what we now know about the universe and its workings fundamentally disallows the existence of a God. I'd get more into that, but you seem to lack the basic grasp of rudimentary science for me to go further (in biology, at least).
 
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dark_angel

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Kwayera said:
Noah's Ark? That was not the point of my (admittedly glib) comment. However, Noah's Ark (or rather the lack of it) is no proof of any story either way - it is a story, nothing more. Perhaps even one of those parables to life that Christians are so quick to point out to explain inconsistencies in the Bible.

Whatever 'evidence' you provided would be disregarded because of its very nature - THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD.

I don't know if I would believe it [if a 'messenger of God' appeared before my eyes]. It hasn't happened, and it is extremely unlikely to; therefore that was a rather uninspiring example to use.

Of course there's things in the Universe that I don't know about - that's a rather sweeping statement that doesn't bolster your argument much. At any rate, the computer screen that I am observing right now is not actually flickering (as in CRT displays) because it is, in fact, an LCD display.

I fail to see how that has any bearing at all on this discussion. Things happen faster than our brain can COMPUTE instantaneously (in fact we recieve the information miliseconds later from our BRAIN, which is where the information is processed, not the EYE, which simply recieves the information); that I agree with. But that has no bearing whatsoever on this discussion, as I have said before, except in relation to you saying that you trust your senses but there's things you don't and never will know about. Fine. We can call that a fait accompli and move on.

Evidence to disprove God's existence? Plenty. The distinct LACK of evidence that proves God's existence for one (and yes, that is evidence); for another, what we now know about the universe and its workings fundamentally disallows the existence of a God. I'd get more into that, but you seem to lack the basic grasp of rudimentary science for me to go further (in biology, at least).
1st paragraph - yes, then if it is just a story isnt that another inconcistency of the bible?

2nd - yes this point i made already, and i agree with you totally, except in that i beleive there is evidence, which i provided earlier but....... any evidence put forth will be dismissed, and let us not say "my god" or "your god" let us just refer to god as god.

3rd - the fact that u said "i dont know if i would beleive it" proves the point that even faced with such tangible evidence, the human mind (or your mind more specifically in this context) will dismiss this, although some people have not. They have seen miracles.

4th - Actually epistemology is the basis of my arguement, and "sorry" i did not know that you were looking at a Liquid-crystal-display, i am only human, not telepathic.....lol But it was just an example, use the singularity analogy if u must.

5th - yep ok i agree i made my point there in relation to senses

6th -
Kwayera said:
Evidence to disprove God's existence? Plenty. The distinct LACK of evidence that proves God's existence for one (and yes, that is evidence); for another, what we now know about the universe and its workings fundamentally disallows the existence of a God. I'd get more into that, but you seem to lack the basic grasp of rudimentary science for me to go further (in biology, at least).
I would REALLY love to hear your side on this issue. Please tell me how what we now know about the universe and its workings fundamentally disallows the existence of a god. Seriously i would love to hear ur arguements on this issue.

OK DONT LET MY APPARENT STUPIDITY GET IN THE WAY OF YOUR POSTS

1- ive done ALL three hsc science courses, ie physics, chemistry (i accelerated in chemistry), biology

2 i am a mathematically minded, logical and ofcourse scientifically minded individual (extension 2 maths)

3 SO in my opinion i think i would have the "rudimentary science" for you to proceed. Even if you are in uni, i can still research the material that you put forth, i am not as stupid as i seem to be.

4. I cannot wait to hear your explanation :p
 

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dark_angel said:
1st paragraph - yes, then if it is just a story isnt that another inconcistency of the bible?

2nd - yes this point i made already, and i agree with you totally, except in that i beleive there is evidence, which i provided earlier but....... any evidence put forth will be dismissed, and let us not say "my god" or "your god" let us just refer to god as god.

3rd - the fact that u said "i dont know if i would beleive it" proves the point that even faced with such tangible evidence, the human mind (or your mind more specifically in this context) will dismiss this, although some people have not. They have seen miracles.

4th - Actually epistemology is the basis of my arguement, and "sorry" i did not know that you were looking at a Liquid-crystal-display, i am only human, not telepathic.....lol But it was just an example, use the singularity analogy if u must.

5th - yep ok i agree i made my point there in relation to senses

6th -

I would REALLY love to hear your side on this issue. Please tell me how what we now know about the universe and its workings fundamentally disallows the existence of a god. Seriously i would love to hear ur arguements on this issue.

OK DONT LET MY APPARENT STUPIDITY GET IN THE WAY OF YOUR POSTS

1- ive done ALL three hsc science courses, ie physics, chemistry (i accelerated in chemistry), biology

2 i am a mathematically minded, logical and ofcourse scientifically minded individual (extension 2 maths)

3 SO in my opinion i think i would have the "rudimentary science" for you to proceed. Even if you are in uni, i can still research the material that you put forth, i am not as stupid as i seem to be.

4. I cannot wait to hear your explanation :p
Yes. Exactly.

I refer to it as YOUR God because many people believe in many Gods (and some not at all ;)); therefore I didn't want to offend anyone by saying that your God was the only God.

But the evidence is not tangible BECAUSE IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. A messenger of your God has not appeared before my eyes - how can you possibly predict how I, or anyone, would react? You can't. (In fact, prediction in itself is a flawed theory, as it is impossible according to Chaos, which I will discuss later).

Epistemology (for those of you who don't know, is the specific branch of philosophy that studies knowledge) doesn't really have any grounds in this debate in the way you're using it. I'd go into that, but I don't know enough about it past a rudimentary grasp of the concept, and so I'll probably say something that's incorrect.

Okay, considering that it's rather late, I'll make reference to only one particular universal 'phenomena' that disallows the existence of your God - chaos. Again, for those of you who don't know, and to really, really, horribly dumb it down (because to be perfectly honest it's been a while since I've revisited what I learnt about chaos), the theory basically states that all things tend towads a state of discord. The 'theory of God' indicates that God is perfect in absolutely every way (and then argue that if he's perfect, then how could be create something so flawed as man, which is stupid [but kind of 'true'], because we're not flawed - we're animals, in the crudest sense) - how, then could a prefect God have created a universe in which the very matter that binds it together tend towards DISORDER, thus chaos? That would imply a flaw in the 'intelligent design' of the universe that many Christains spout as 'evidence' for it's existence - what God would create a universe hell-bent on ripping itself apart (i.e. away from order into disorder = chaos) at the quantum level?

I realise i'm not explaining this very well, as it's 1:00am and I'm only a lowly dropped-from-2u-into-general maths and just-started-on-HSC-physics and what-the-hell-bearing-does-this-have-on-quantum-physics-even-though-I-actually-AM- a-HSC-course-EES student, so my 'evidence' isn't really very convincing, however much it is based on fact (and 'Biblical' evidence is based on fiction).
 

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Kwayera said:
Okay, considering that it's rather late, I'll make reference to only one particular universal 'phenomena' that disallows the existence of your God - chaos. Again, for those of you who don't know, and to really, really, horribly dumb it down (because to be perfectly honest it's been a while since I've revisited what I learnt about chaos), the theory basically states that all things tend towads a state of discord. The 'theory of God' indicates that God is perfect in absolutely every way (and then argue that if he's perfect, then how could be create something so flawed as man, which is stupid [but kind of 'true'], because we're not flawed - we're animals, in the crudest sense) - how, then could a prefect God have created a universe in which the very matter that binds it together tend towards DISORDER, thus chaos? That would imply a flaw in the 'intelligent design' of the universe that many Christains spout as 'evidence' for it's existence - what God would create a universe hell-bent on ripping itself apart (i.e. away from order into disorder = chaos) at the quantum level?

I realise i'm not explaining this very well, as it's 1:00am and I'm only a lowly dropped-from-2u-into-general maths and just-started-on-HSC-physics and what-the-hell-bearing-does-this-have-on-quantum-physics-even-though-I-actually-AM- a-HSC-course-EES student, so my 'evidence' isn't really very convincing, however much it is based on fact (and 'Biblical' evidence is based on fiction).
hmmmm ok firstly, who are we to question god? if god has created the universe, it cannot be questioned, and neither can any of god's other actions.

1. You forget that every particle has an anti-particle, and mass can be converted into energy. E=mc2 obviously, what i'm saying is that all the matter in the universe is essentially energy, which is "pure". If u have heard of the big bang theory, you would realise that all the evidence actually points to the fact that the universe was created in an immense explosion from a singularity, ie a region with infinite density, temperature, space etc. but then the question must be asked, according to the law of conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can merely be canged into different forms, which i assume u know

IF THIS IS THE CASE, THEN WHERE DID ALL THIS MATTER COME FROM????? (keep in mind that matter is essentially energy)

God? So basically science is conforming to the existence of god.....lol

A singularity is the epitome of material objects in this universe, a region of space-time of infinite boundaries and a potentail disaster for epistomolgy, but this relates to what i have been saying about our senses. i do not know why they are present (well i know the scientific reason ofcourse) but in relation to god, as i said gods actions are not questionable.

2.
how, then could a prefect God have created a universe in which the very matter that binds it together tend towards DISORDER, thus chaos?
you assume that if god is perfect, that whatever god may create is perfect. This is not the case, who says that god cannot create something imperfect, and how do u know the universe is not perfect?

quantum theory just adds to the evidence in regards to my arguement and epistemology.

choas theory is merely the after effects of a certain event, ie say for instance the "Butterfly Effect", a butterfly flapping its wings in a certain area of the atmosphere can have profound impact in the future, like it might cause an imbalance in the atmospheric pressure, and there u have it... a cyclone up your ass...mind the language

"A chaotic system is defined as one that shows sensitivity to initial conditions. That is, any uncertainty in the initial state of the given system, no matter how small, will lead to rapidly growing errors in any effort to predict the future behavior…In other words, the system is chaotic. Its behavior can be predicted only if the initial conditions are known to an infinite degree of accuracy, which is impossible."

perhaps chaos is necessary for the macroscopic details to emerge.

what would happen if we did not have chaos? The world would lack something wouldnt it, probability it would not be as we know it.. for futhur reading research the Anthropic priciple.

This is essential is it not?

so chaos is in fact integral in my opinion.

In the realm of the quantum, little is known, although we have gone a long way. I could go on for ages, but im tired *yawns* and i got a fucking philosphy essay on the 'many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics' which is due very soon mind u.

hmmm uncertainty priciple springs to mind, wat else, ah yes 'quantum foam' and the probablilty of matter. Cassimir effect.

ah shit mind-blank


oh well science does infact do the opposite to what u say. For me it is just evidence for god, and i will do my best to learn as much as i can about this universe before i die. another aspect which i think should be discussed is the MWI (many world interpretation) of quantum mechanics, as this is philosphically satisfying.


- sorry if i made an scientific errors, i'm not perfect and i dont want to be
 
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acmilan

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One thing that bugs me about this is referring to the Bible as fiction. Firstly obviously the creation story is fiction, that is basically what a myth is, and the creation is indeed a myth, no one is claiming that creation occurred the way detailed in the Bible, but it is a method of explaining that the world was created by God, it is not to be taken as the way it actually occured. Secondly I do not take Jesus and his actions and teachings as fiction, and most do not, even non-Christians. Also remember that despite contradictions in the old and new testament, there obviously must be. The old testament is the only book in the Jewish Tenach as the Torah. The New Testament was written for Christians as it is believed that Jesus came to perfect Judaism and hence the reason for some contradictions. Thats my 2 cents. Note that no where in my statement did I say anything on the question of whether God exists, just alerted people that the Bible is not total fiction
 
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katie_tully

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All day long Jc Chasez Dreams About Sex, all eternity long Jc Chasez will burn in hell.
SINNER.! ARGGGH.

Religion is a crock of shit. Why? Because I said so.
Science provides valid answers for every stupid biblical story. How do I know? I watched the Disocvery Channel, baybee.
 

joujou_84

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katie_tully said:
All day long Jc Chasez Dreams About Sex, all eternity long Jc Chasez will burn in hell.
SINNER.! ARGGGH.

Religion is a crock of shit. Why? Because I said so.
Science provides valid answers for every stupid biblical story. How do I know? I watched the Disocvery Channel, baybee.
will science burn JC in hell for eternity?
 
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katie_tully

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No, because nowhere in New Scientist does it state that sex outside of marriage, or deviant sexual acts are against gods will, and are punishable by an eternity in hell.
Hump my leg sparky, Dr. Spok won't crucify you.
 

joujou_84

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katie_tully said:
No, because nowhere in New Scientist does it state that sex outside of marriage, or deviant sexual acts are against gods will, and are punishable by an eternity in hell.
Hump my leg sparky, Dr. Spok won't crucify you.
since when did Old Scientist say that "sex outside of marriage or deviant sexual acts" led u to hell
 

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