Euthanasia (2 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I've read about the prisoners dillema and tit for tat strategy etc pretty interesting.

I would use the term 'relative' rather than 'false'. Our personal moral rules can still retain validity despite not being absolute ones.

Yea false is probably the wrong word, but I'm not sure about relative as I don't believe they hold any ultimately proovable validity (once we remove the context etc which is where you're probably going with relative)... I think 'null' is probably a better word.

 

[HotShot]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

No, that's a different kind of situation. A will represents a choice that we have made previously. You're infering too much.

Yes it is a different situation, but I am saying there are possibilties. there is way for a system to be developed to ensure that it is exploited and that the service is as it supposed to be.

At the moment - you have to go to sweden or something - and the you documentation - proving medical condition, you need to pay hefty sum, all sorts of paperwork. Counselling and then in the end they approve. The choice is not made in the end by the patient. It is made by the institution offering service - I guess they are liable to some extent.

IF you make the institution liable for the patient - then I am sure that the right measures will be taken into place to ensure the patient recieves proper 'treatment'.

Euthanasia consider it as a drug.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

A few questions about cases where an individual cannot make 100% their own decisions:

- What determines whether or not someone has the capacity to exercise choice?

- When deciding for someone, what rules can we use to decide appropriately? If we are trying to choose that which is in their 'best interests' then who determines what constitutes their 'best interests'?

We have the parents, caretakers and the government help them with more difficult decisions by making the kind of decisions that an average reasonable person would make, and those which enhance their future welfare. For example compulsory schooling.

Fine. Go to the Gap and jump, slit your wrists, OD on pills, step in front of a bus whatever just don't ask the state to sanction it and assist you in committing suicide.

I agree that anyone who wants to be euthanased should pay for it themselves or have their family do so, and doctors are capable of acting as their own persons outside of the concept of state.

 

[Serius]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

cool. I am now in full support of 'euthanasia'. Infact if anyone wants to kill themselves, be it suicide because they are depressed, or just cause they cant just harded the fuck up and take some pain. We probably dont need those kinds of people around, and well the earth is overpopulated so fuck it, do what you want.

Of course we have a problem with the Hippocratic Oath, but who cares, doctors half wittingly kill patients all the time.

If we are going to accept suicide or assisted suicide in some cases, why not for every idiot who wants to die? we could do it futurama style with suicide booths. Ofcourse i can now go around killing anyone i think is in pain because afterall i have their best interests at heart. Pretty sure i could bribe someone into letting me assist in their suicide[something akin to the movie "Hostel']

If we are going to claim euthanasia as a right because people should have control over their bodies then you cannot deny someone in a sound mind the right to end their lives, and if they are adamant about it they will probably kill themselves anyway all you will be providing is a nice safe, sterile, pain free death.

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

At the moment - you have to go to sweden or something - and the you documentation - proving medical condition, you need to pay hefty sum, all sorts of paperwork. Counselling and then in the end they approve. The choice is not made in the end by the patient. It is made by the institution offering service - I guess they are liable to some extent.

In that situation the individual has still made the choice to die. What is being determined by the government & medical profession (& others) is whether or not a given invidual should be allowed the freedom of a painless death. Certainly, they are the ones making the choice if they deny an individual that freedom, but if they are permitting then all they do is allow a previously made choice.

Of course we have a problem with the Hippocratic Oath, but who cares, doctors half wittingly kill patients all the time.

The Hippocratic Oath may admonish euthanasia, but keep in mind that 'do no harm' lends itself to the idea that 'one should not prolong pain unnecessarily'.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

cool. I am now in full support of 'euthanasia'. Infact if anyone wants to kill themselves, be it suicide because they are depressed, or just cause they cant just harded the fuck up and take some pain. We probably dont need those kinds of people around, and well the earth is overpopulated so fuck it, do what you want.

Of course we have a problem with the Hippocratic Oath, but who cares, doctors half wittingly kill patients all the time.

If we are going to accept suicide or assisted suicide in some cases, why not for every idiot who wants to die? we could do it futurama style with suicide booths. Ofcourse i can now go around killing anyone i think is in pain because afterall i have their best interests at heart. Pretty sure i could bribe someone into letting me assist in their suicide[something akin to the movie "Hostel']

I never said that people should resist talking to people about their decision to commit suicide beforehand. For example if I'm a landlord writing a new lease when my tenant's one is just about to expire, I have the right to bump up the price, but that doesn't mean they're not going to talk to me about it and try to convince me to do otherwise.
Suicide booths: if they're a service that's in demand, then bring them on.
Killing people that look in pain: strawman. Once again, you're making their decisions for them, so we end up with you mocking your own argument.

If we are going to claim euthanasia as a right because people should have control over their bodies then you cannot deny someone in a sound mind the right to end their lives, and if they are adamant about it they will probably kill themselves anyway all you will be providing is a nice safe, sterile, pain free death.

Agreed.

 

[Martyno1]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

Haha I just wrote an essay on this in my religion exam today.
I'd say no, but not because I'm religious, but because there's palliative care.

 

[Serius]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

its not a strawman if i can get them to agree to it. Cannabals will have a field day aswell, all they have to do is find someone depressed and convince them to become their next meal.

The Hippocratic Oath may admonish euthanasia, but keep in mind that 'do no harm' lends itself to the idea that 'one should not prolong pain unnecessarily'.

the oath isnt simply " do no harm" heres the revelant part of it

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death.

It says nothing about prolonging pain where is states you shouldnt be killing your patients.
Its quite clear there that the oath is against any sort of euthansia, even if just telling the patient what drugs they could 'hypothetically' [to cover your ass] use to end their life painlessly.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

I'd argue people so depressed that they are willing to have someone eat them probably aren't mentally stable.... but if they are, fine. I'd also argue euthanasia should be punishable where it can be shown the one who performed it gained a great benefit from that persons death.

 

[banco55]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

I'd argue people so depressed that they are willing to have someone eat them probably aren't mentally stable.... but if they are, fine. I'd also argue euthanasia should be punishable where it can be shown the one who performed it gained a great benefit from that persons death.

If you're a greedy, ungrateful son/daughter and you stand to inherit say a million dollars (a house in inner sydney) you could subtly encourage the euthanasia option. There's no reason you'd have to do it yourself.

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

The oath isnt simply " do no harm" heres the revelant part of it

...

It says nothing about prolonging pain where is states you shouldnt be killing your patients. Its quite clear there that the oath is against any sort of euthansia, even if just telling the patient what drugs they could 'hypothetically' [to cover your ass] use to end their life painlessly.

I'm quite aware of this - you may have missed it but I said above that the Hippocractic Oath admonishes euthanasia. My point is that euthanasia can be seen as a way of minimising harm/pain to a patient, and so could be justified if we used the motto 'do no harm' as our guiding principle. What I was trying to imply (somewhat vaguely, I apologise) was that euthanasia isn't necessarily at direct odds with the Oath. Although it clearly states that euthanasia is wrong it also puts forth the 'do no harm' principle which could plausibly be extended in a way which justified euthanasia. Anyway, I geuss that all this really shows is that the Oath might harbour some latent inconsistencies, or at least some imprecise concepts (e.g. what does it mean to 'do no harm'?). The hippocratic oath really starts to show its age in debates like this. It is interesting to note that, aside from euthanasia and abortion, the Oath seems to oppose the modern idea that a patient has a 'right to autonomy' (i.e. that they should be enabled to give informed consent where possible), instead preferring good ol' fashioned paternalism.

 

[Ennaybur]

What are your thoughts on it?
(and why - from social, political, economic, psychological, religious, ..., perspectives?)
What are the pros+cons and issues with it?

Does anyone know where it's legal? And under what circumstances?

aware that there's another thread on it but it's a bit old and people obviously have different views in this extremely different social and political mileu.

 

[Iron]

I was for it before I was against it

 

[Ennaybur]

As an atheist I don't know if I can support it ideally, and pragmatically I don't think it would ever work.

Decriminalising it, on the other hand, might be an option

edit: can someone please explain to me, the difference between legalising and decriminalising?

 

[Iron]

As an atheist, I dont know if you can support anything at all???

 

[scaredytiger]

As an atheist I don't know if I can support it ideally, and pragmatically I don't think it would ever work.

Decriminalising it, on the other hand, might be an option

edit: can someone please explain to me, the difference between legalising and decriminalising?

doesnt legalising mean "you can do it" and decriminalising mean "if you get caught youll be stopped, but we wont prosecute you"?

 

[scaredytiger]

well the issue is, where the line is between "voluntary euthanasia" and "suicide."

also, whether it is a chronic disease, a chronically terminal disease or someone on life support.

 

[Enteebee]

I fully support voluntary euthanasia because I actually support agency.

Devil's advocate her, sup yo?

Where is autonomy if the person is incompetent?

 

[scaredytiger]

i have no criticism. merely was discussing it in an objective political sense.

 

[Ennaybur]

The point from atheism I'm wondering about is like this:

A rational agent has a right to chose what he/she thinks is best for themselves.
Paternalism is wrong (in this situation)
Having a terminal illness and living in pain is a worse option for the person suffering it. Dying is the better option.

Therefore euthanasia is okay.

But, as an atheist I'm struggling with the premise that death is better than a life of pain. We only have one life (imo), even one full of pain and with a knowledge that you will die is surely better than nothing, forever more.

That's just theoretically. In practice we bring up all the issues of fallibility or remarkable recoveries or (even if it's <10% chance of it happening) important/significant things happening at a point past the one they would have chosen eithanasia, if it had been available.