Federal Aboriginal intervention (2 Viewers)

[Aryanbeauty]

Some guy on the news said:

If its a national emergency, why hasn't John Howard done anything about it for 11 years.

because you opposed it.

 

[sthcross.dude]

because you opposed it.

opposed what?

 

[Justin]

It is great to see. But some people have a different definition of "helping" to you. Allowing the current situation of welfare dependance is unworkable. We will help them away from this situation where many of them are "booze addicts or paint, petrol or glue sniffers" if we stop mollycoddling them.

So you want to help them? How nice of you.

No job, no welfare = no money.
No money = no solvents.
Are you really that retarded?

What the fuck are you talking about?

Furthermore I don't really see what you're trying to achieve by labelling my views "old fashioned".

Old fashioned. Out Dated. Obsolete.

Strawman. I said that they were better off in cities, not ideal.

And i say that they aren't better off in cities.

Where's your evidence that welfare is helping them? I mean if we've got two arguments, both equally useless, we might as well take the one which isn't a burden on the taxpayer, right?

My argument is that money helps people. That seems more logical than yours.

You're either saying it's because they were disenfranchised, which is repeating what I said, or because aboriginals are genetically hardwired not to be able to work, which is racist. Now which is it?

Saying what?

Nobody forced alcohol down their throats or petrol up their nostrils, that's a choice.

Yes. It's "their choice". Under what circumstances would YOU choose to live that lifestyle?

There will be no racism towards them if they're living off the land.

Really?

Dispossession is being solved, with the bulk of them being given back traditional lands, and if they wish to live on them and sustain themselves as they have for 40 000 years then there's no reason they aren't able to.

Given back lands? I thought their lands were currently being confiscated in the NT?

Also, you can't expect them to just go back living like they did 40,000 years ago when their traditional life style has been destroyed.

You can get welfare that you can live off without conditions tied to it if you're an anglo saxon living in the city? I think not.

Of course you can.

They have two options:
1. Reject the machine, live off the land. If you're rejecting one part of the machine then you shouldn't be asking it for a handout either.

I'm not saying that they SHOULD reject the machine. I'm saying what right do you have to demand that they conform to your capitalist mindset?

2. Accept the machine, and make moves towards getting a job.

oh, it's as simple as that.

You can't pick and choose which parts of western society you want to accept, because with every benefit comes responsibilities.

No it doesn't. I can think of numerous instances where people receive benefits and they dont have responsibilities. Disabled people, children, etc. You're black and white line of argument clearly doesn't work, which you know, but you're using it to justify your racism.

 

[Justin]

I love all this crap about how we should just send social workers, doctors etc. and leave the police out. If a social worker comes across a kid who tells them that he/she is being abused what can they do about it? If wives are getting beaten up a social worker isn't going to be of much use. Not to mention you are going to have a hard time retaining social workers if they aren't backed up by the police.

^^ Blatant fantasizing. Your imagination is bullshit i'm afraid.

You engage in such hypothesizing without having actually experienced the situation or having done any research. You know nothing about the situation.

Also, the police should be the last group of interaction between the state and its people.

The police should not go in there in force (like they have); they should play a secondary role to the social workers, medical staff etc.

If wives are getting beaten up a social worker isn't going to be of much use. Not to mention you are going to have a hard time retaining social workers if they aren't backed up by the police.

Everyone is neatly defined into their respective role. And you, the expert psychologist know exactly how the situation will play out, because everybody is exactly the same and you have expert social research skills which enable you to predict the situation.

It might interest you to know that everyone involved this interaction in the NT(police, doctors, the aboriginis, the social workers) are human beings - they are all different. You cannot categorize them like you have done. Especially when it aids your pessimistic white viewpoint.

 

[yourfacehere!]

I am willing to accept that the welfare cycle is very destructive, and is a huge contributing factor to the current situation of a number of Aboriginal people around the country. Noel Pearson himself has made this clear repeatedly.

So we cut off the flow of any funds into Aboriginal communties, and tell them all to get a job. So the vast majority, who have lost the ability to live off the land in a modern Australia, head to the cities where they are entirely (and probably irrepairably) unemployable in an urban environment.

They cannot afford housing on basic unemployment cheques, and no propreiter will let them rent anyway. The average diet dissolves into simple fast food, worseneing the health situation (and creating a healthcare drain on the precious economy). Crime rates rise as thousands of Aboriginal people have nothing left to turn to, and they are easily locked away in the courts. Substance abuse worsens as money is still poured into drugs - a few hours of drug induced bliss is for many more appealing than a healthy dinner.

Is this situation any better?

It is so easy to find seemingly simple solutions to seemingly easy problems. For you, withoutaface et al. the problem appears clear in the form of welfare and the nature of remote communities. And as such the answer seems clear - cut off the money, move them into cities. But with a bit of thought, isn't it obvious that this will only worsen the problem?

So what should we do?

Welfare in the form of grocery vouchers is a sensible idea, as the Govt. has put forward. Continue developing the Aboriginal tourism industry that has done a lot for a lot of Aboriginal communities, and does make jobs. Let them live together on their ancient land - it is a far better context than an urban hellhole like much of the city. I'd rather an Aboriginal person in the NT happily sleeping in a tent than sleeping in a cardboard box. Cut off the petrol bowsers, turn the part of their welfare chueque that usually goes into booze and drugs into food vouchers, and develop education systems out there.
Most importantly, work with the elders and other leaders of the community, so that the local people actually have some motivation to get themselves out of this rut. Self-determination only works if there is an actual leader, and when it does work it's a fantastic thing. Work with Aboriginal people for a real solution, that will be naturally difficult and take a long time - this is a very complex problem that we've made for ourselves.

But don't shift them into a new environment and expect it all to sort itself out, as the Aboriginal people become respectable white citizens with a four-bedroom house in St Ives, because it simply wont happen and we'll find ourselves in a worse situation in a decades time.

I hope I didn't dash your dreams of a simple solution...

 

[banco55]

^^ Blatant fantasizing. Your imagination is bullshit i'm afraid.

You engage in such hypothesizing without having actually experienced the situation or having done any research. You know nothing about the situation.

Also, the police should be the last group of interaction between the state and its people.

The police should not go in there in force (like they have); they should play a secondary role to the social workers, medical staff etc.

Everyone is neatly defined into their respective role. And you, the expert psychologist know exactly how the situation will play out, because everybody is exactly the same and you have expert social research skills which enable you to predict the situation.

It might interest you to know that everyone involved this interaction in the NT(police, doctors, the aboriginis, the social workers) are human beings - they are all different. You cannot categorize them like you have done. Especially when it aids your pessimistic white viewpoint.

Yes because you are such an expert . It's not a matter of individuals the fact is that the police have powers that social workers simply don't have. If the social workers get an order to remove a child who do they turn up with to remove the child? The police.

 

[jimmayyy]

Some guy on the news said:

If its a national emergency, why hasn't John Howard done anything about it for 11 years.

because its not the Federal governments problem, its a state issue. hence "intervention".

 

[yourfacehere!]

Wouldn't such Aboriginal-specific issues possibly be the issue of the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs?

I think such a serious issue regarding so many Aboriginal people is probably something that should have come to the attention of the Minister well before now.

And the NT isn't technically a State....

The most embarassing part about all of this is that most of the current problems would be far less serious if the Federal government had properly implemented the Recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. A considerable portion of these worked to solve the grassroots problems that are at the heart of all these issues (welfare dependency etc.).

So yeah, minor point but the Federal Govt has to take a lot of the responsibility for this issue. That said, the NT can't walk away spotless, but still, its embarassing that Howard has decided to deal with this now, after 11 years of doing everything he possibly can to work against Aboriginal development (effectively scrapping native title, CDEP reforms, closure of ATSIC, sleeping with Pauline Hanson...ok not confirmed but it so happened).

Wonderful images in your head, hey?

 

[banco55]

Wouldn't such Aboriginal-specific issues possibly be the issue of the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for Indigenous Affairs?

I think such a serious issue regarding so many Aboriginal people is probably something that should have come to the attention of the Minister well before now.

And the NT isn't technically a State....

The most embarassing part about all of this is that most of the current problems would be far less serious if the Federal government had properly implemented the Recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. A considerable portion of these worked to solve the grassroots problems that are at the heart of all these issues (welfare dependency etc.).

So yeah, minor point but the Federal Govt has to take a lot of the responsibility for this issue. That said, the NT can't walk away spotless, but still, its embarassing that Howard has decided to deal with this now, after 11 years of doing everything he possibly can to work against Aboriginal development (effectively scrapping native title, CDEP reforms, closure of ATSIC, sleeping with Pauline Hanson...ok not confirmed but it so happened).

Wonderful images in your head, hey?

ATSIC was an incompetent/corrupt organization that should have been closed.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

I love all this crap about how we should just send social workers, doctors etc. and leave the police out. If a social worker comes across a kid who tells them that he/she is being abused what can they do about it? If wives are getting beaten up a social worker isn't going to be of much use. Not to mention you are going to have a hard time retaining social workers if they aren't backed up by the police.

Who the fuck was suggesting that police should be totally left out? I count a total of about zero people methinks. No, what is being suggested is that maybe, just maybe, sending a bunch of trigger happy police and military personel into the situation isn't going to help anyone. On the other hand, maybe some councilling, educators, healthcare etc (all of which you've conviniently left out of your post) backed up by a police force to be used only when nessecary, and as a preventative measure might be a decent thing. That, uh, doesn't seem to be the gist of the governments knee-jerk reaction to this business though.

Tell me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me as if you seem to think this a short term thing. Yep, someone's suffering from child abuse so throw the abuser into prison and everything will be just fine.

I just love that the head of the treasury was yesterday suggesting that all welfare should be pulled from these people. Someone explain to me why such an ignorant penis-face is allowed to be at the head of a welfare giving organisation?

 

[yourfacehere!]

ATSIC wasn't perfect, but to close it and not replace it with anything...at all...wasn't a spectacular move.

Considering that the state of Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islanders is comparable to that of a third world nation, maybe some sort of specific attention is a reasonable idea? Because clearly the closure of ATSIC hasn't done wonders for Aboriginal people has a whole...and its hard to call anything a drain on the budget when we are continually experiencing ridiculous surpluses...

Side issue, admittedly, but still.

 

[banco55]

Who the fuck was suggesting that police should be totally left out? I count a total of about zero people methinks. No, what is being suggested is that maybe, just maybe, sending a bunch of trigger happy police and military personel into the situation isn't going to help anyone. On the other hand, maybe some councilling, educators, healthcare etc (all of which you've conviniently left out of your post) backed up by a police force to be used only when nessecary, and as a preventative measure might be a decent thing. That, uh, doesn't seem to be the gist of the governments knee-jerk reaction to this business though.

Tell me if I'm wrong here, but it seems to me as if you seem to think this a short term thing. Yep, someone's suffering from child abuse so throw the abuser into prison and everything will be just fine.

I just love that the head of the treasury was yesterday suggesting that all welfare should be pulled from these people. Someone explain to me why such an ignorant penis-face is allowed to be at the head of a welfare giving organisation?

I think if you actually read the details of the plan it is education, healthcare plus police. They are already consulting with the AMA etc. about the doctors. Your talking like the police and the military are going to go in like stormtroopers. The only reason the military is even there is to provide logistical support because the communities are in remote areas and the military has the resources to operate in that kind of environment. Would you prefer the military was left out and then we can wait another 3 months for the police to build their own logistical capibility?

I don't think it's a short term thing but I do think child abusers (be they aboriginal or white) should be in jail and they should receive long sentences. What do you propose we do with them? Of course that won't solve all the problems any more then putting a burglar in prison will stop all burglaries.

 

[banco55]

ATSIC wasn't perfect, but to close it and not replace it with anything...at all...wasn't a spectacular move.

Considering that the state of Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islanders is comparable to that of a third world nation, maybe some sort of specific attention is a reasonable idea? Because clearly the closure of ATSIC hasn't done wonders for Aboriginal people has a whole...and its hard to call anything a drain on the budget when we are continually experiencing ridiculous surpluses...

Side issue, admittedly, but still.

Actually most of ATSIC's programs were given to other government departments and continue today.

 

[withoutaface]

What the fuck are you talking about?

You questioned my statement that without welfare they wouldn't be able to afford to abuse solvents, I provided a counter argument and all you've been able to do is feign ignorance.

Old fashioned. Out Dated. Obsolete.

FIrstly, you've done nothing to establish why they're old fashioned. Secondly, it's an appeal to novelty, and that is a fallacy.

And i say that they aren't better off in cities.

Give reasons why. Wikipedia tells me that there are lower levels of abuse and unemployment in the city, so unless there's a very good reason for keeping them away I can't see why you're arguing against me.

My argument is that money helps people. That seems more logical than yours.

My argument is that people are generally better off when they earn their own money, because it gives them a sense of self worth, a reason not to abuse themselves and a grasp of what they're spending is actually worth.

Saying what?

You've stated that it is because of underlying problems in the community, seemingly refuting my point, except for the fact that I conceded that the initial situation was mostly due to European intervention.

Yes. It's "their choice". Under what circumstances would YOU choose to live that lifestyle?

So bottle-to-mouth is a reflex now?

Really?

Unless there's going to be racism from other people of their own race, then I can't see how it will happen.

Given back lands? I thought their lands were currently being confiscated in the NT?

And I disagree with this.

Also, you can't expect them to just go back living like they did 40,000 years ago when their traditional life style has been destroyed.

What precludes them from getting back into it?

Of course you can.

Links or hax.

I'm not saying that they SHOULD reject the machine. I'm saying what right do you have to demand that they conform to your capitalist mindset?

I'm saying that if they want welfare from a capitalist society, they should actively seek work in said society. That's not a big ask, is it? To attempt to contribute back to the society which is giving you a leg up?

No it doesn't. I can think of numerous instances where people receive benefits and they dont have responsibilities. Disabled people, children, etc. You're black and white line of argument clearly doesn't work, which you know, but you're using it to justify your racism.

So hang on, here you are saying that indigenous people are on par with the mobility of the disabled and the intelligence of children, and yet I'm the racist?

 

[Karl Marx]

I think what Justin is saying is that Aboriginals are too stupid to hold jobs, too stupid to look after their family, too stupid to live in big cities. They can't do anything without welfare. They have to self-control to anything "white man" invented.

He's the racist.

 

[withoutaface]

I think what Justin is saying is that Aboriginals are too stupid to hold jobs, too stupid to look after their family, too stupid to live in big cities. They can't do anything without welfare. They have to self-control to anything "white man" invented.

He's the racist.

So go create an ideology based on jealousy about it.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

When you quote in the way you do, failed union representative, you just overcomplicate the entire thing, and make it impossible for anyone to read through your impossibly repetitive and dull posts. May I suggest that instead of overquoting (which although fun, is fruitless) you structure coherent posts? It'd make it a lot more fun for everyone else.

I think if you actually read the details of the plan it is education, healthcare plus police. They are already consulting with the AMA etc. about the doctors. Your talking like the police and the military are going to go in like stormtroopers. The only reason the military is even there is to provide logistical support because the communities are in remote areas and the military has the resources to operate in that kind of environment. Would you prefer the military was left out and then we can wait another 3 months for the police to build their own logistical capibility?

I'm sure there's a mention of education, social work and other kinds of social help in the plan but I'll suggest (maybe flick through a newspaper or two or find a website [wikipedia?]) that it's probably made up of a lot of money going towards the tried and failed mechanism of treating the Aboriginal communities as a bunch of poor, jobless, hopeless wack jobs that need not be helped out of their problems but just thrown into jail. That does indeed seem to be the case, if my assumptions on resource allocation within this new aboriginal plan are at all correct.

I make it sound as if the police will be going in there like stormtroopers? Yeah, that's pretty much how it will operate. Hell, I see more police cars patrolling the streets of Redfern in a collective half hour each day than I do in a whole year anywhere around Camden. It's incredibly easy (not to mention stupid) to suggest that's the case because Aboriginal people are inherently dangerous and therefore we have to double the amount of law enforcement officers we send to an outback community, because the ones outside of Sydney have to be ten times worse than the ones in Sydney! No, I'd suggest that perhaps instead of Redfernising the whole thing that money could instead be spent on actually rooting out the problems and helping them. I'm not suggesting that we just throw money at "education" and hope for the best, I'm instead suggesting that the government remains accountable for where that money actually goes, and makes sure that it gets somewhere. There's a smattering of that in this new policy, and good on Howard and co for making sure that it'll get where it's needed (not just in Aboriginal communities) but to me, it just doesn't seem like enough, and the disproportionate amount of money allocated to law enforcement doesn't seem like they're aiming for anything more than Redfernising this whole matter.

I don't think it's a short term thing but I do think child abusers (be they aboriginal or white) should be in jail and they should receive long sentences. What do you propose we do with them? Of course that won't solve all the problems any more then putting a burglar in prison will stop all burglaries.

I don't think anyone will disagree with that, but look at the whole matter honestly. Cast aside any prejudices against the cliche, and kinda realise that throwing the poor into prisons as if they're second class citizens hasn't, isn't and never will help anyone out. I'm certainly not proposing sticking a rapist in jail for a day and then letting them out, but the level of brutality and overzealous policing that these people have to deal with is ludicrous, and it's another case of overallocation of money to law enforcement even though that's an incredibly easy, dead-ended solution to a much more complex problem. I'm not Aboriginal affairs expert, so I don't have a detailed plan to cope with it any other way, but I do seem to recall a whole lot of Aboriginal affairs experts condemning the governments plan and instead calling for much more to be devoted towards the very things I listed. Maybe it's time that they were listened to?

 

[withoutaface]

When you quote in the way you do, failed union representative, you just overcomplicate the entire thing, and make it impossible for anyone to read through your impossibly repetitive and dull posts. May I suggest that instead of overquoting (which although fun, is fruitless) you structure coherent posts? It'd make it a lot more fun for everyone else.

When I've made an argument and he's not made a dent in it, it's easier to explain why each of his points is fallacious, because responding in paragraph form would just have me repeating what I said earlier.

 

[banco55]

I don't think anyone will disagree with that, but look at the whole matter honestly. Cast aside any prejudices against the cliche, and kinda realise that throwing the poor into prisons as if they're second class citizens hasn't, isn't and never will help anyone out. I'm certainly not proposing sticking a rapist in jail for a day and then letting them out, but the level of brutality and overzealous policing that these people have to deal with is ludicrous, and it's another case of overallocation of money to law enforcement even though that's an incredibly easy, dead-ended solution to a much more complex problem. I'm not Aboriginal affairs expert, so I don't have a detailed plan to cope with it any other way, but I do seem to recall a whole lot of Aboriginal affairs experts condemning the governments plan and instead calling for much more to be devoted towards the very things I listed. Maybe it's time that they were listened to?

Depends who you mean by aboriginal experts. Noel Pearson for example supports it. We've been largely following the advice of other more left wing aboriginal experts for the past 20 years (more autonomy etc. less paternalism etc) and it's being a disaster.

 

[yourfacehere!]

banco 55 is fairly correct in his interpretation of the military's role in the whole exercise, they are playing a purely logistical role. This isn't a hostile takeover.

Just as the police are simply going in because there is next to no police presence in any of these communities, and without a strong form of community leadership/self-policing in many of these communities they have gone to shit. The police are there to hold a short crackdown on sexual abuse and substance abuse, and to assist in establishing a new short term system of management in the communities that require it. This short term system will exist until something can be implemented that involves the local Elders, a system that can survive in the long term.

Which is why I support it. The only Aboriginal leaders that are opposed to it are a select number of Elders in the NT who fear another stolen generation, which is fair enough because 'deploying the military' does sound somewhat fearsome on the surface. But those who do know the intrinsics of the plan tend to support it.

That's not to say the Government wont totally f*** it up, as they have before. Like in Iraq! But frankly, this idea is better than anything anyone else has come up with, so I'm willing to support it.