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Full fees for one in three students ... what do we think? (2 Viewers)
Why should a parent pay for their child's education at the tertiary level at the expense of their own life? Surely by that stage the kid should be willing to accept the burden of studying rather than working?
braindrainedAsh
Journalist
I hate the way that you are making inuendo that people's parents aren't trying hard enough to cough up the massive amounts of money for full fee.... it's certainly not true. I know if it came down to it my parents would take out a loan against the house to send me to uni. But is this fair for my two younger siblings? Is it fair that they will be missing out? Is it fair that my parents will have to sacrifice even more than they already do for me?
Government help means nothing to me. I am not eligable to get Youth Allowance (unless I become independent, i.e. earn the $16000 which I am planning to try and do during my first year at uni) so I assume that I wouldn't be eligable for these scholarship things. But for families who earn just above the threshold for youth allowance it is exceedingly difficult to meet the high costs of tertiary education, and yet there is no government assistance. In the end it means that sacrifices have to be made by the family... that often means sacrifices are being made by younger siblings, and this isn't really equitable. The only assistance I will get next year is $80 a week living away from home allowance, however if I earn more that $100 a week (which I will have to earn more than to survive, pay rent etc) the payment is reduced greatly... basically to earn enough money a week for living expenses will mean that the payment effectively reduces to zero.
Australia's primary and secondary schooling is quite good (although suffering from the teacher problems and some funding problems) however the government is abandoning young Australians when it comes to tertiary education. I don't have a huge problem with the ability of unis to increase HECS... sure, I'd rather they be cheaper, but they still are much much less than full fee. But making more and more uni places full fee is going to decrease the amount of Australians able to undertake tertiary studies.
Government help means nothing to me. I am not eligable to get Youth Allowance (unless I become independent, i.e. earn the $16000 which I am planning to try and do during my first year at uni) so I assume that I wouldn't be eligable for these scholarship things. But for families who earn just above the threshold for youth allowance it is exceedingly difficult to meet the high costs of tertiary education, and yet there is no government assistance. In the end it means that sacrifices have to be made by the family... that often means sacrifices are being made by younger siblings, and this isn't really equitable. The only assistance I will get next year is $80 a week living away from home allowance, however if I earn more that $100 a week (which I will have to earn more than to survive, pay rent etc) the payment is reduced greatly... basically to earn enough money a week for living expenses will mean that the payment effectively reduces to zero.
Australia's primary and secondary schooling is quite good (although suffering from the teacher problems and some funding problems) however the government is abandoning young Australians when it comes to tertiary education. I don't have a huge problem with the ability of unis to increase HECS... sure, I'd rather they be cheaper, but they still are much much less than full fee. But making more and more uni places full fee is going to decrease the amount of Australians able to undertake tertiary studies.
Mambomeg
yay! custom!!!
Yes, Vet science. why is it more expensive than anything else? i dont understand, it is as important as everything else, someones gotta look after the animals that we eat.
"no, because you can be willing to take a FEE-HELP loan (or god forbid even a bank loan)"
yep melbournian, i'm sure that a bank would be more than willing to lend an 18 yr old with no credit history $150,000, especially when i am doing only casual work, and have no assets to speak of. The fee help loans have interest too, adding to the already huge costs.
I agree with Ash, my mum could get a second mortgage to pay my uni fees, but then what will she do when my 3 younger siblings need money? She would sacrifice anything for me, but it is unfair of me to ask her to, simply because the government is tightassed.
I dont appreciate being called 'Stingy as Fuck', my mum is a single mum with 4 kids who works full time (she's a doctor) but thanks to the government, she pays over $30,000 a year in medical indemnity fees. We are being hit from all directions for money from this liberal government. I am eligible for youth allowance - a whopping $2 a fortnight, yet if my mum earned $5000 a year less, i would get $80 a week. The government is the one that is 'Stingy as Fuck',.
i'm not opposed the the HECS increases, just the reducing number of HECS places, and the increasing number of FEE places. honestly, soon we will be just like america, with parents setting up college funds before their kids are even born. its ridiculous.
I missed out on getting into my course (UAI 98.00) by 0.05. meanwhile, some bludger who got like a 93 or something is taking my place in the course. there is a big difference in the amount of work u have to do to get a 98 and a 93. Sorry if that persons parents had to sell their BMW to sent their kid to uni, but i would willingly sell my car to get into a course, unfortunately i'd only get like $2000 for it. Its still the same amount of sacrifice, but it wouldnt get me aywhere.
What are these scholarships? Can anyone give us more info, i've heard them brought up a lot in arguments.
The concept of full-fee paying students is wrong. How can you say someone who gets 98 and gets into their course cos they can afford to pay full fees deserves to be there more than a student who got 99.55, can't afford to pay full-fee and therefore misses out. There is no excuse that can hide the fact that people are literally buying their way into a course.
Look they're not calling you rich, they're just pointing out the fact that you or your mum CAN afford to pay full-fee, although it is a struggle and sacrifice, and they CAN'T, even if they made an equivalant sacrifice according to their income levels, it wouldn't be enough. You're being a bit ignorant yourself, assuming that cos YOUR family is able to do it, everyone else must be stingy if they can't. It's a rash generalisation.
Mambomeg
yay! custom!!!
well if u dont care, dont read my posts. get off your own high horse where you think that everyone can afford anything if they are "willing to make sacrifices". hmm, what should i sacrifice this week, well, the dog doesnt need food, or maybe we could wipe our bums with leaves, save the few dollars we spend on toilet paper.Originally posted by melbournian
Because if you are that willing to do a course, you will make sacrifices.
Wow, you seem so hard done by. I am not gonna post my situation, but beleive me, im not wealthy one bit.
HECS places aren't reduced, but INCREASED. The government is preventing overenrollments, which are not the governments fault, but the universitites fault. Government funded places are increasing. Just shows how ignorant to these reforms you are.
Right....
You wouldn't have a clue. Your an absolute ignorant fuck. Get off your high horse where you think that anyone who works hard can achieve 98. That is interlec tually snobbery.
Go tell someone who cares, because frankly I have no time for whingers who think the government should pay for everything. You are so hard done by
I dont think that anyone who works hard can get 98, i'm just saying there is a big difference between a 93 and a 98, like there is a big difference between a 98 and a 100.
And sorry, if u are going to pick on every little thing, i mean "proportionately less" HECS places. Government funded places should automatically increase with the increasing number of students applying to universities, but they dont.
I never said u were wealthy, i only implied that if u are in a financial situation where you can access funds to pay for uni, then you are better off than a lot of others. comparatively, we are all wealthy, everyone in Australia is comparatively wealthy.
why be such a jerk for?
But what about everyone else? So you are more broke than one person, but thousands more would be broker than you... if they can't, no matter what sacrifices they make, afford to pay full-fee, what can they do? Nothing, they have to give up their places to people with more money, even if they BEAT them with their UAI.
Someone said before that the UAI doesn't indicate how well you'll go at uni - true. Regardless, it is what our country uses to get you into uni, therefore that's what you really have to base people's merit on. As simplistic as it sounds, if someone gets a better UAI, they have earned a place in their course ahead of others who scored lower.
No amount of money should be able to change that. And even if the system isn't perfect (like the debates about courses scaling crap, people not doing well in exams etc) that show that the UAI isn't a good indicator of how you'll go in uni, if they are going to have other ways to get into uni, it should still relate to ability or your capacity to do well in university. Not money. It's so irrelevant to deserving to be in your course, yet for someone reason it can make all the difference.
Mambomeg
yay! custom!!!
here here.
White Rabbit
Bloody Shitcakes
melbournian you are one conservative son of a bitch, ya know that?
Everyone can afford full fees? You are an even bigger moron than I give you credit for. You may live in the Western Suburbs, but the fact that your parents even own their own house, regardless of how much is still legally the banks, proves that you are in alot better position than many other prospective University students.
My mum does not have a house to take out a second morgage on. She has no real assests, nor earn enough for a bank to even consider giving her a long 'Sorry? Whats that? the single parent pension? Theres the door, luv'.
And even if we did own a house, and even if she could take out a second morgage, where does it leave my siblings? My brother will be in this same position in 3 years, my little sister in 5. What happens then?
The system was great as it was. My eldest sister, while she did work her arse off to pay for everything else she needed, only got through university because of HECS. It should stay how it use to be.
You are a dead set fucking ignorant moron to believe that EVERYONE is in a position to pay these fees. If your parents own their own house, and are in a position to pay fees for you, then you are privliged in comparrison to many others. You quite frankly, shit me beyond belief. You obviously do not know what it is like to be well and truly broke. Where there is a struggle to pay rent on time, when the phone is disconected because it was a choice of the phone bill or power bill. When parents make REAL sacrifices just to put food on the table for their children.
You are one ignorant fuck, and even worse than that, you refuse to admit your own ignorance. And you attack people of whom you have absolutley no understanding. Fucking liberals.
Everyone can afford full fees? You are an even bigger moron than I give you credit for. You may live in the Western Suburbs, but the fact that your parents even own their own house, regardless of how much is still legally the banks, proves that you are in alot better position than many other prospective University students.
My mum does not have a house to take out a second morgage on. She has no real assests, nor earn enough for a bank to even consider giving her a long 'Sorry? Whats that? the single parent pension? Theres the door, luv'.
And even if we did own a house, and even if she could take out a second morgage, where does it leave my siblings? My brother will be in this same position in 3 years, my little sister in 5. What happens then?
The system was great as it was. My eldest sister, while she did work her arse off to pay for everything else she needed, only got through university because of HECS. It should stay how it use to be.
You are a dead set fucking ignorant moron to believe that EVERYONE is in a position to pay these fees. If your parents own their own house, and are in a position to pay fees for you, then you are privliged in comparrison to many others. You quite frankly, shit me beyond belief. You obviously do not know what it is like to be well and truly broke. Where there is a struggle to pay rent on time, when the phone is disconected because it was a choice of the phone bill or power bill. When parents make REAL sacrifices just to put food on the table for their children.
You are one ignorant fuck, and even worse than that, you refuse to admit your own ignorance. And you attack people of whom you have absolutley no understanding. Fucking liberals.
braindrainedAsh
Journalist
Oh yeah Melbournian, those scholarships are the answer.... you would have to be on the highest level of Youth Allowance or indigenous to even have a chance at getting one of those... and it wouldn't be guaranteed either. I don't think you can use them to back up your argument... they would help such a very small minority it is ridiculous that you keep using them as a fall back statement to back up your argument...
It is unfair that someone can get in to a course with a 93 when someone with a 97.95 misses out if the cut off is 98. I wouldn't say someone who got 93 is a bludger by any means, it's still a fantastic UAI, but the fact is that the person with 97.95 should get that place. The UAI may not be perfect in measuring tertiary success but it's the fairest system we have and selling uni places to the highest bidders isn't fair by any means. It undermines the principles of the statewide examinations such as the HSC and VCE.
To do the course on my prefs would cost me $55000.... That is a third of the value of my house. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass... the scholarships and the loans aren't going to help average Australians. Instead, the next generation of school leavers will have massive loans hanging over their heads which means they won't be able to buy houses or other assets to secure their future.... I reckon that with fees like that, Australia's birth rates will continue to decline because people will put off having kids until they have cleared themselves of their massive tertiary debt.
It is unfair that someone can get in to a course with a 93 when someone with a 97.95 misses out if the cut off is 98. I wouldn't say someone who got 93 is a bludger by any means, it's still a fantastic UAI, but the fact is that the person with 97.95 should get that place. The UAI may not be perfect in measuring tertiary success but it's the fairest system we have and selling uni places to the highest bidders isn't fair by any means. It undermines the principles of the statewide examinations such as the HSC and VCE.
To do the course on my prefs would cost me $55000.... That is a third of the value of my house. Why don't you pull your head out of your ass... the scholarships and the loans aren't going to help average Australians. Instead, the next generation of school leavers will have massive loans hanging over their heads which means they won't be able to buy houses or other assets to secure their future.... I reckon that with fees like that, Australia's birth rates will continue to decline because people will put off having kids until they have cleared themselves of their massive tertiary debt.
Mambomeg
yay! custom!!!
We arent whinging about our situations, we just dont like having the fact that we dont have *that* much money shoved in our faces.
Dedication to studies has nothing to do with it, you shouldnt have to take on hundred thousand dollar debts to get degrees, in a country with a $4 billion plus budget surplus we shouldnt have to pay such huge amounts of money for an education.
Educated people benefit the whole nation, it is in the governments best interests to educate its population.
Our dedication to studies should show through in our marks and work experience and things like that, not through the amount of money we are willing to spend.
(Hypothetical example, not indicative of my performance ): I'd be seriously pissed if I got 99.6 and the only reason why the cutoff to a course was 99.65 was because there was less HECS places and more fullfee places...
): I'd be seriously pissed if I got 99.6 and the only reason why the cutoff to a course was 99.65 was because there was less HECS places and more fullfee places...
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Asquithian made a good point. More people may be applying for university, but how many are suitable for the courses that they select?
People should be realistic with regards to what they handle in a mental, social and financial sense, and although I think that Melbournian could have approached it in a different way, his point regarding sacrifices is valid. However, I would have placed the sacrifice on the student themselves (eg get a degree, then/or work while studying part-time for the other if they can) rather than the parent and the student.
But, once again, full-fee students are a practical solution in a world where the universities are required to make money. Besides, only three in the state (USyd, UNSW, and the ACU?) offer full-fee places as it is, although that may well change.
People should be realistic with regards to what they handle in a mental, social and financial sense, and although I think that Melbournian could have approached it in a different way, his point regarding sacrifices is valid. However, I would have placed the sacrifice on the student themselves (eg get a degree, then/or work while studying part-time for the other if they can) rather than the parent and the student.
But, once again, full-fee students are a practical solution in a world where the universities are required to make money. Besides, only three in the state (USyd, UNSW, and the ACU?) offer full-fee places as it is, although that may well change.
braindrainedAsh
Journalist
Melbournian, you say that you will never buy a house, but aren't our parents supposed to be borrowing money against their houses to pay our full fees in order to be trying hard for their kids' future?
Anyway, I hold my opinion and none of Melbournian's liberal party policy pounding will change my view on this issue. It's fruitless to argue with Melbournian because he is as stubborn as I am... except I know I am right. Let's just hope Melby doesn't have to take a second mortgage on his non existant house one day to send his kids to uni...
Edit: (5 mins later) Shit I forgot lol... well gay couples can adopt can't they?
Anyway, I hold my opinion and none of Melbournian's liberal party policy pounding will change my view on this issue. It's fruitless to argue with Melbournian because he is as stubborn as I am... except I know I am right. Let's just hope Melby doesn't have to take a second mortgage on his non existant house one day to send his kids to uni...
Edit: (5 mins later) Shit I forgot lol... well gay couples can adopt can't they?
thats not what i said jackass. Use some of that wit when reading simple implications.
Melbournian you're being as ignorant of others' cases as they are of yours.
Not every fee payer or international student is loaded. Some struggle so much financially that they're here squeezing 8 ppl into an apartment and I've seen it. Not every person with a 90+ is bright. Actually I'd say half of them are pretty stupid. Generalisations have to be made though. And yes there are always exceptions. We all know that. Get with it.
braindrainedAsh
Journalist
Well there is a guy from Bangladesh we know who is here at uni and he works about 5 jobs to scrape enough together to survive and he barely eats.... I don't even think he has a bed where he is living...... so not all international students are wealthy.
Ribbon
Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2003
- Messages
- 455
You obviously aren't as broke as you make out, if you are not on the full amount of youth allowance. So there are a lot worse of people than you in the world, yet you still insiust you are hard done by. The world owes you no favours.
So what about someone who is on the highest amount of youth allowence... Its bad enough that I might miss out on a place because i've had to work 20 hours a week ontop of school for the entire HSC (prelim included) so that I can afford to live comfortably (my definition of comfortable being that you can afford all the neccesities and still have $20 left over at the end of the fortnight) and therefore couldn't achieve to my best potential, I accept that its not the fault of the wealthy that this has happened, but should I also have to give up my place in my course of choice to someone with a lower UAI, from a more wealthy background, who has had all the time in the world to study, free of the stress caused by financial hardship and with resources to buy things like textbooks (which I could not afford, and being from a small rural school could not borrow... our library is crap) simply because they can afford to get a loan to pay thier fees? Who is more deserving?
Don't for one minute think that people getting loans to get into uni are the only ones making sacrifices to get there.
And as if not getting the highest amount of youth allowence means you must be able to get by all right. Do you realise the threshold for having youth allowence cut is around $40000? That means his mother makes less than that. You must not have much experience in the real world if you think on less than $40 000 there is alot of money to go around 3 kids and a morgatage, even with the token amount of assistance the government gives to single parents.
The world owes the 'socio-economically disadvantaged' no favours? Probably true... but then why do the wealthy deserve an easier entry path into university providing they are willing to buy thier way in?
As for those scholarships... what a joke! They give a small minority of the people affected by the increased costs $2000 as a way of justifying thier actions? I wonder... is the balance of the population wealthy enough to benifit, or poor enough to be disadvantaged by these reforms coming into the next election?
So what about someone who is on the highest amount of youth allowence... Its bad enough that I might miss out on a place because i've had to work 20 hours a week ontop of school for the entire HSC (prelim included) so that I can afford to live comfortably (my definition of comfortable being that you can afford all the neccesities and still have $20 left over at the end of the fortnight) and therefore couldn't achieve to my best potential, I accept that its not the fault of the wealthy that this has happened, but should I also have to give up my place in my course of choice to someone with a lower UAI, from a more wealthy background, who has had all the time in the world to study, free of the stress caused by financial hardship and with resources to buy things like textbooks (which I could not afford, and being from a small rural school could not borrow... our library is crap) simply because they can afford to get a loan to pay thier fees? Who is more deserving?
Don't for one minute think that people getting loans to get into uni are the only ones making sacrifices to get there.
And as if not getting the highest amount of youth allowence means you must be able to get by all right. Do you realise the threshold for having youth allowence cut is around $40000? That means his mother makes less than that. You must not have much experience in the real world if you think on less than $40 000 there is alot of money to go around 3 kids and a morgatage, even with the token amount of assistance the government gives to single parents.
The world owes the 'socio-economically disadvantaged' no favours? Probably true... but then why do the wealthy deserve an easier entry path into university providing they are willing to buy thier way in?
As for those scholarships... what a joke! They give a small minority of the people affected by the increased costs $2000 as a way of justifying thier actions? I wonder... is the balance of the population wealthy enough to benifit, or poor enough to be disadvantaged by these reforms coming into the next election?
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Ribbon, working 20 hours a week is not an excuse for 'not reaching your potential' with the HSC. Not managing you time is a decent excuse.
It would be great if people could realise that full-fee places are a realistic option that are currently available at only two of the state's universities (and the ACU). While that may change in the future, it is unlikely to be that dramatic.
Another thing, not everyone who currently enters university as a full-fee student is rich, although many of you seem to be certain that that isn't the case.
It would be great if people could realise that full-fee places are a realistic option that are currently available at only two of the state's universities (and the ACU). While that may change in the future, it is unlikely to be that dramatic.
Another thing, not everyone who currently enters university as a full-fee student is rich, although many of you seem to be certain that that isn't the case.
