Hamas (1 Viewer)

[HotShot]

Well, they have been elected democratically - and yet USA and Israel still dont recognise them interesting?

Well it was the americans who pushed for the elections and it was Hamas who won legimately, obviously Israeli security forces would have overlooked the elections, so obviovusly nothing much there.

So why then? are america and israel failing to recognise a government elected democratically. Obviously the Fatah government never stood a chance, as far as i can see under Mahmoud Abbas they did jackshit for the Palestinian people. On the other Hamas took a pragmatic approach which yielded results.

And now a government of Democracy (USA) decides not to give aid to the palestinian people, leaving them to suffer and create more hatred towards them. I dont understand why is it the USA continues to create trouble around the world?

 

[davin]

so....the us is at fault because they're not giving? you're acting like the u.s. is supposed to give money outright and that theres not a factor of choice.

granted, i don't like the lack of contact being planned....personally, my angle would be the the u.s. should've said that they would talk with Hamas as a legitimate gov't they'd negotiate with until there was a suicide bombing by Hamas and cut it off then. give them the chance to act non-terroristy while in charge.

 

[yy]

i don't think usa is creating trouble in this instance, because it's not its duty to give aid to other countries. however i do find it ironic that hamas won the election that was strongly supported by usa.

 

[HotShot]

Well yes, but remember the US was giving aid prior to the elections. Also the US is supporting Mahmoud Abbas now to give him more power?

Also remember the US was a strong supporter of the elections and they had enough power to ban Hamas from taking part in the elections...

 

[HotShot]

It's clearly different. Hamas works against the principles of democracy. You know, when you say "become a democracy" you hope that the people have at least two brain cells to rub to together to be able to go further than simply having a democratic process. You hope that they will become normal as a result of that democracy.

so u basically consider 'democracy' something that america dictates and rules, has control over.

This is a clear evidence of the failure of democracy.

 

[Pubert]

Just because Hamas isn't in full agreement with USA on political issues doesen't mean it's not a democracy.
The Isreali government violates the human rights of the Palestinian people daily, yet they are considered democratic.

 

[Pubert]

When the israreli or US governments kill innocent civilians it is in the name of social order, but when its committed by Hamas it is terrorism.
Yes, Hamas have killed innocent civilians, but so have many governments around the world have too, so please tell me why they shouldn't be recognised.

Don't call me stupid when you obviously know jackshit of what your talking about.

 

[HotShot]

*sigh*

Selective intelectual stupidity is so yesterday, sister.

HAMAS = terrorist organisation = not democratic.
Israeli government = violates human rights in the name of social order.

Why is it that people like you, and so many other people on this forum, need things like this to be spelt out? I seriously, cannot believe, that... people could be so stupid?

Are you blind or somehing?

social order = Bullshit!

i think ur blind man, dude its retaliation not social order. How is it democratic to constantly launch missiles at one target resulting in the death of about dozen civilians?

Hamas initally wasnt a terrorists organization, only after the intifada they became one, as result of the results of violence and its impact on the arab-israeli conflict. anyway

A terrorists organization is allowed to take part the in the elections but not allowed to run a government -'democracy'.

 

[davin]

first of all, no one has exactly explained why the U.S. HAS to give aid. American money is not an entitlement for other countries or organisations.

Second....Hamas, I believe, had part of its platform be the distruction of Israel and the Israeli people. Israel has wanted land, but not the extermination of Palestinians. The U.S. has not been for the extermination of nationalities or ethnicities. And also, consider that terrorism is very different from accidentally killing someone thats innocent. Terrorism is attacking a civilian populace or civilian targets with the intent to create fear in the whole populace. Such as suicide bombings, where you get people to worry that there could be one anywhere, and that the only reason people are killed by them is they happened to be on a bus or in a cafe.
The casualties involving innocents where the U.S. involved tends to be crossfire, and missed shots, and such. Still a concern, but they differ greatly in intent. Now, if the only reasons Israelis ever died was because they were caught in cross fire or accidents in what was going on between Palestinians attacking only the Israeli military...that would be different.

 

[HotShot]

first of all, no one has exactly explained why the U.S. HAS to give aid. American money is not an entitlement for other countries or organisations.

well its the same reasons that they gave aid to Israel - why should they give aid to them? -discrimination...

"Destruction of Israel" - but does Palestine really stand a chance against Israel - is it a real threat? or is it just overhyped by the israelis and the media.

Considering there are clearly political movements behind the elections (which i am unable to decipher still), why did america support the elections (or call for the elections) and yet deny givin aid, Its like america wants to control Palestine?

 

[davin]

if by discrimination you mean being selective. which the u.s. has every right to do. the u.s. has a limited amount of money. i didn't say no country should give no other country aid, just that it shouldn't be EXPECTED

and so...you're saying, its ok that Hamas wants to destroy israel because they'd in the end lose? they still are killing people to try to intimidate Israel and make people fear them. (though not seen numbers on that since the election)

 

[Sweets]

It's funny I didn't see a be deal being made when Israel elected a leader guilty of war crimes (Note, I don't support Hamas)

But I suppose I will take Bill Clintons stance on it, if Hamas being elected is good for the people, then it's good for us.

 

[davin]

considering the u.s. has a major deficit right now and seriously needs to cut spending?

and so, any country should be obligated to give money to a country or organisation that has less money than it?

i'm not saying i'd not like to see the u.s. helping other countries more, but you have this attitude that it should be expected. nothing forces the u.s. to give money, nor anyone else to give money.

i also don't see why its shocking that they'd not fudn a gov't who has an official viewpoint that the only country that can be where israel is now is a islamic religious gov't. not just that it can't be a jewish state, but also that it can't be a secular one.

 

[Pubert]

What would america gain by controlling Palestine?

This proves your stupidity.

 

[HotShot]

considering the u.s. has a major deficit right now and seriously needs to cut spending?

and so, any country should be obligated to give money to a country or organisation that has less money than it?

and yet they continue to give aid to ISrael, Africa etc with a major deficit, and palestine is only a small percentage.

also Israel has refused to give Palestine's money from tax.

But i am not saying that America is obligated to give money, but they cant stop just because Hamas has been elected democratically, doesnt give a gud intention why?
it shows doesnt have the interests of the palestinian ppl in mind, and rather its own militaric strategic plans.

 

[Pubert]

So you believe that if a party is elected democractically then that means that no one should have any objections?

So then you wouldn't mind if the NAZIs were re-elected in Germany? If they were, would the world just be expected to go on acting as if there was nothing wrong with them being re-elected.. after all, they were elected democratically!

Moron.

HAMAS = Terrorists.

US government = Terrorists
Isreali government = Terrorists

Did the US government not terrorise the citizens of Iraq? They 'liberated' them when they did not want to be liberated due to the harsh consequences of war. America only had its own interests in mind and was willing to sacrifice many civilian lives at the expense of their interests.

The Isreali government has killed thousands of civilians at the expense of these 'Terrorists' who really are just politicians or religious leaders against the state of Isreal, as am i, does that mean they have the right to kill me?.
Isreal terrorises the Palestinian people daily yet people arn't quick to call them terrorists, why? This is because people only have their own interests in mind. HAMAS has the interests of it's people in mind and is currecntly preaching peace and for the rights of the palestinian people being fulfilled.

I don't think you can compare HAMAS as anything like the Nazis. Their intentions arn't to eradicate the Jewish people nor do they want to take control of the world, all they want is for their people to be entilited to what is thiers.

 

[HotShot]

So you believe that if a party is elected democractically then that means that no one should have any objections?

So then you wouldn't mind if the NAZIs were re-elected in Germany? If they were, would the world just be expected to go on acting as if there was nothing wrong with them being re-elected.. after all, they were elected democratically!

Moron.

HAMAS = Terrorists.

thats all fine, but remember the US pushed for the elections and they could have easily banned Hamas from partcipating. They could have said that Hamas wasnt elgible to form a government.

But if a party is elected democratically, then really you have accept it? otherwise where is the barrier?

How do you say Hamas as a terrosist organization, from your perspective maybe, but from theirs there are an organisation trying to gain freedom. By denying the government of Hamas you are denying their freedom.

 

[Pubert]

Your lame, insignificant and largely incorrect replies have wasted my time. So fuck you.

Don't bother replying im not going to waste my time with you any longer.

 

[davin]

your definition of terrorism is, imo, absurd. it seems to be any negative action towards any group or people, real or imagined, intentional or accidental, defines terrorism.
i would define terrorism as any attack that is targeted at a civilian population with the expressed intent of creating fear in said population, which has not been the u.s.'s policy in iraq, nor has it been the policy of israel in dealing with the palestinians. there ARE israeli groups that have tried to use terrorism as well, yes, but they are not identical to the parties running Israel.

 

[HotShot]

your definition of terrorism is, imo, absurd. it seems to be any negative action towards any group or people, real or imagined, intentional or accidental, defines terrorism.
i would define terrorism as any attack that is targeted at a civilian population with the expressed intent of creating fear in said population, which has not been the u.s.'s policy in iraq, nor has it been the policy of israel in dealing with the palestinians. there ARE israeli groups that have tried to use terrorism as well, yes, but they are not identical to the parties running Israel.

lol, any attack on the western world is deemed terrorism - thats ur definition.

"Us policy in Iraq" who gives a shit about policy its what they do that matter, i can tell you that Iraq now is more fearful than before, with random suicide bombings that kill about 50 people each time. Before under Saddam Hussein he might have executed few hundred every year, but under america about 100 per month die.

now, under your perspective Hamas is a terrorist organisation (which is ok), but under palestinians perspective they are not, and they have elected to represent Palestine, and i think the americans have no reasons to not to recognise Palestine. FOr instance, if america doesnt recognise Palestine, then why would expect a smaller country to recognise a much larger Israel? it just doesnt make any sense.

Israel, is a nuclear power country, Palestine is running short of funds, desperately needs support. Thats is the problem that is the fact. America is whinging tight ass, wasted all its resources on Iraq, and now just because Hamas is in leadership it avoids givin aid to Palestine?