hay ho vsu has got to go?? (1 Viewer)

[thejosiekiller]

hay what do you think will be the effect of vsu on UTS alone and its students?

Personally i think we have less of a need for the unions as some other unis, but thats just because UTS is different in its day to day activities.

do you think the protestors against vsu are just going with the flow because in theory they should be opposed to it, rather than looking at how it will really affect them.

 

[Shuter]

do you think the protestors against vsu are just going with the flow because in theory they should be opposed to it, rather than looking at how it will really affect them.

That's all they ever do.

 

[braindrainedAsh]

Get it right.... it was hey hey, ho ho, VSU has got to go.

I think that campus life is a crucial part of university culture. That is why I support USU.

You may feel we have less of a need, but what about people who need childcare, legal advice, jobs, assistance etc.

I personally think that at UTS we have more of a need than a big uni like USyd. Firstly, because UTS has a lot of part time students they need support because a lot of them are working full time.... they need things like childcare etc. Secondly because our campus life is not hugely active, imagine how boring it would get if we lost what we have..... thirdly, student media and politics have been a way for people to access jobs in those fields in "the real world".... we will be losing this vital training ground (and don't scoff... a lot of our current politicians got their start as student pollies).

Plus, what about K-gai? If the union can no longer support facilties out there it will not be financially viable for independent contractors to provide these services to such a small number of students. You can kiss shops and bars out there goodbye. The same goes for all regional campuses of any university.

 

[thejosiekiller]

well dont you think some of the services that the unions do supply put financial strain on other needed services...for instance the money put into food shops, anime societies, gridiron (however you spell that american sport) and bars could be privately run? and the money that vsu will generate go to needed services and possibly the money universities charge private business to operate also do the same

also vsu doesnt prevent university culture, if anything it is a reason that the university can organise events where funds can be collected. however this is a random idea and along with others i have heard in the last few weeks will have to be thought about and executed since vsu cannot be stopped. its unfair to say usu is the integral part of university campus life, when its the students who are the integral part- therefore it is up to us to do something reasonable about it...rather than proclaim without a union we are helpless

since vsu will come into force it will mean universities will change, no doubt...however i think it would be better if students and the unions for the time being started thinking about what to do in the future to ensure needed services that were provided by the union, are still offered next year and maybe improve them if possible for future students.

i seriously cant imagine students at kuring-gai stranded and starving due to vsu, nor do i imagine part time students or single mothers being denied university education because of vsu. i know Australians do not like things to change, but we have to adapt cause nothing stays the same forever

 

[Lexicographer]

The unions in Sydney (including UTS, but moreso USyd and UNSW) spend way more money on political agenda than they should, and a lot more than elsewhere (eg UWA where I study now). However, most of their money still goes into the student services, even at UTS. UTS has very little attendance at campus events because of the extreme competition from Haymarket and the city, but the clubs are very strong because they contribute a lot to an otherwise dull campus. Without the union's financial support there would be no clubs, which sucks mightily.

 

[braindrainedAsh]

At UTS only the $30 we pay for the students association goes towards political stuff as far as I know. It isn't really that much.

 

[Lexicographer]

That's how much we pay directly for them, and that goes into their representative services.

BUT.

They also get accounts with the university (from the union I believe) for things like printing [those DAMN POSTERS THEY STICK EVERYWHERE]. They also have the permanently EMPTY "womynz" and queer spaces.

 

[thejosiekiller]

do you think political agendas and what not will die from vsu anyway?

they like being heard, no matter what they say and how many people ignore them at UTS

 

[Shuter]

but the clubs are very strong because they contribute a lot to an otherwise dull campus. Without the union's financial support there would be no clubs, which sucks mightily.

Which one am I supposed to be sad about loosing? The socialist alliance? Out2party (Gay)? The muslim society? Hillsong Church society? Wu Wei Society (traditional chinease medicene)? Coptic society (christian)?, Catholic Asian Students Society? Korean Students Association? MASA (Malaysian)? Buddist Meditation Society? Tamil Society? need I go on? mmmm, I'm really going to miss these.

Also, need I point out that the membership fee for NON-UNION members is only twice that of a union member, so in most cases, $10 instead of $5, or $20 instead of $10. This sure isn't going to break my budget and I still see a net saving of almost $200 to me by not joining the union.

If the union wants people to join it, they have to show that they're services are a worthwhile investment. They've already had the hard part done for them - they're established, they should be able to use their large bulk and economies of scale to provide more value for money than the cost of joining... but they don't. Therefore, it's time to go unions.

 

[SashatheMan]

i am a man of few words, but fees suk donkey balls

 

[Riewe]

At UTS only the $30 we pay for the students association goes towards political stuff as far as I know. It isn't really that much.

But its the PRINCIPLE. I don't want any hippy organistation taking my hard earned money spending it in ways which is totally opposite to my stance.

 

[withoutaface]

I like how they say it's got to go when it hasn't even come in yet.
I also like it how Queers (that's right, it's spelt with a captial q now.) call people homphobes, and then run off to their own space because they're scared of the straight people.

 

[my sharona]

I'm happy to pay my Union fees, it's the Student's Association fees i don't like.

 

[highpingbastard]

What about other important stuff (which, might i say, would cost a lot lot more than any soc ever would?)

e.g. the gym (it's a great gym btw), legal advocacy? huh?

Those two alone would cost a lot more than the silly societies. Now I agree with you that some societies are...disagreeable...at minimum. BUT, that's how democracy works. You give everyone the chance to vote for something, there's always people who do stupid things like vote for idiots...or donkey vote. You give people the chance to other freedoms, there's always people who stuff it up. THAT'S THE NATURE OF IT.

I think that your argument that "i don't want people spending my money on this and that" is a much bigger argument...it's something that happens on a MUCH LARGER scale...for instance, politicians are often allowed to travel for "work conferences"...and all that is is that they get $5,000 to go party and drink etc etc..

You don't like what they're doing with your money? GO FIGHT IT, instead of blaming it on the student's association. The Union is there to provide important services, an independent place where you can speak against the uni, and of course clubs and socs (some of which are great, mind you).

 

[thejosiekiller]

What about other important stuff (which, might i say, would cost a lot lot more than any soc ever would?)

e.g. the gym (it's a great gym btw), legal advocacy? huh?

Those two alone would cost a lot more than the silly societies. Now I agree with you that some societies are...disagreeable...at minimum. BUT, that's how democracy works. You give everyone the chance to vote for something, there's always people who do stupid things like vote for idiots...or donkey vote. You give people the chance to other freedoms, there's always people who stuff it up. THAT'S THE NATURE OF IT.

I think that your argument that "i don't want people spending my money on this and that" is a much bigger argument...it's something that happens on a MUCH LARGER scale...for instance, politicians are often allowed to travel for "work conferences"...and all that is is that they get $5,000 to go party and drink etc etc..

You don't like what they're doing with your money? GO FIGHT IT, instead of blaming it on the student's association. The Union is there to provide important services, an independent place where you can speak against the uni, and of course clubs and socs (some of which are great, mind you).

im not doubting the need for some services, however essential services that university students actually need, rather than really wanting it are different //eg the gym- that is not a needed service you need to complete your studies or to represent your interests as a university student...

but thats not entirely my point, people believe without the unions and association uni students are helpless- i dont think this is the case

more time should be spent trying to figure out the next step, than yelling at a brick wall which has majority control within parlaiment

and who cares about what politicians spend (although its a waste)- im talking about the realistic effects of vsu for uts students

we could take things to a much larger scale, but that would be taking things out of context

and no1 is blaming the union- this isnt a anti usu/vsu thread...im just asking people what should be done after vsu comes into effect

the unions and association are important, but within our studies at uts they will not be as important- this is a fact, with less money they will be forced to conserve their spending and spend more time trying to raise funds for what they determine are needed services

needed services and wanted services change from person to person- you would have to have every uts vote on this rather than claim that democratically the unions always represent and give us what we need...how many times have you exercised your right or had something to say? sure you would talk about it with your friends maybe, but what about at a union meeting

uts students are not as politically minded as other uni students

vsu eleminates this and forces them to think more on what students really need and to think creatively on how to offer services that we need/want- whether it is to have fund raising of their own accord or to have private businesses to enter the picture...

//end rant

:uhhuh: i promise

 

[Shuter]

So you're saying that if we stop government funding roughts, then naturally UTS Union funding roughts will stop too?

Moronic.

 

[highpingbastard]

So you're saying that if we stop government funding roughts, then naturally UTS Union funding roughts will stop too?

Moronic.

Not sure too who you are replying to (me or josiekiller...)...I assume me though. I'm not sure why I should bother replying to someone who needs to call me a moron (despite the fact that it is obviously you who did not understand me).

But here it goes:
No, I was not saying that if you stop government funding roughts then UTS funding roughts will stop. I was saying that the problem of funds being used inappropriately is INHERENT in the whole system of democracy...and that there's MUCH BIGGER scams going on but which no one seems to care about (despite the fact that the bigger scams cost way more money).

I also said that I do agree that some of the CLUBS (not the whole union) are crap. I agree with you in this point and I think the problem may be the fact that it's too easy to get funding. But, there's always two sides to the story. The fact that the union is making it easy for anyone to start a club/soc is a good thing in that everyone has the freedom to create a club and group together people of similar interests. The obvious disadvantage being that if the founder is not serious, then the club becomes redudant and a burden on resources.

However, I also reiterated the point that there are humungous amounts of funds being spent on useful services. The gym is a great example (the fees are very very cheap...there's nowhere you'll find it that cheap..except maybe at other unis). Legal advocacy can be useful for students...and if you just do some basic research, you'll find that legal representation is very very expensive. Other things such as academic appeal (where you can appeal to the uni) is handled by the students association. Finally, I am a strong believer that freedom of speech is an important thing (and the fact that many publications are the result of the student association's funding supports freedom of speech) to maintain and let's be reasonable here, freedom of speech is GREATLY restricted due to the whole capitalist structure. Freedom of speech is for the rich, only...period.

Now I'm not saying that we have to change the whole system so that we can be communist etc etc..Don't misunderstand me. I am merely outlining that there are a lot of benefits, besides the whole club/soc dillema. There are problems, yes. But if VSU is instated then there will be no funding for these important things. Some things to do with student's asscoiation may be a little stuffed up, but I think the solution is to go and fight for what you what changed - not to abolish the whole system!

The people who support the whole "i should pay for only what i use" argument are being narrow-sighted. Firstly, if you ever need legal advocacy, even ONCE in the 5 years, those instalments of $200 that you paid for over those 5 years would've already been made up for you. Secondly, just use the gym a few times and your money will be made up. I mean, the $200 that you spend is diverted across a broad range of things and it works because not everyone uses ever single service...therefore, everyone pays for everything bringing down the price of everything and you use what you want while leaving the residual for others to use.

 

[Shuter]

therefore, everyone pays for everything bringing down the price of everything

I can see why you don't do Business.

 

[thejosiekiller]

But here it goes:
No, I was not saying that if you stop government funding roughts then UTS funding roughts will stop. I was saying that the problem of funds being used inappropriately is INHERENT in the whole system of democracy...and that there's MUCH BIGGER scams going on but which no one seems to care about (despite the fact that the bigger scams cost way more money).

I also said that I do agree that some of the CLUBS (not the whole union) are crap. I agree with you in this point and I think the problem may be the fact that it's too easy to get funding. But, there's always two sides to the story. The fact that the union is making it easy for anyone to start a club/soc is a good thing in that everyone has the freedom to create a club and group together people of similar interests. The obvious disadvantage being that if the founder is not serious, then the club becomes redudant and a burden on resources.

However, I also reiterated the point that there are humungous amounts of funds being spent on useful services. The gym is a great example (the fees are very very cheap...there's nowhere you'll find it that cheap..except maybe at other unis). Legal advocacy can be useful for students...and if you just do some basic research, you'll find that legal representation is very very expensive. Other things such as academic appeal (where you can appeal to the uni) is handled by the students association. Finally, I am a strong believer that freedom of speech is an important thing (and the fact that many publications are the result of the student association's funding supports freedom of speech) to maintain and let's be reasonable here, freedom of speech is GREATLY restricted due to the whole capitalist structure. Freedom of speech is for the rich, only...period.

Now I'm not saying that we have to change the whole system so that we can be communist etc etc..Don't misunderstand me. I am merely outlining that there are a lot of benefits, besides the whole club/soc dillema. There are problems, yes. But if VSU is instated then there will be no funding for these important things. Some things to do with student's asscoiation may be a little stuffed up, but I think the solution is to go and fight for what you what changed - not to abolish the whole system!

The people who support the whole "i should pay for only what i use" argument are being narrow-sighted. Firstly, if you ever need legal advocacy, even ONCE in the 5 years, those instalments of $200 that you paid for over those 5 years would've already been made up for you. Secondly, just use the gym a few times and your money will be made up. I mean, the $200 that you spend is diverted across a broad range of things and it works because not everyone uses ever single service...therefore, everyone pays for everything bringing down the price of everything and you use what you want while leaving the residual for others to use.

geez here i go again:

you can continue the point that democracy and free speech is important-YAY no1 is saying otherwise, and whether you oppose vsu and other people disagree with you does not make it the struggle of the century

the fact that the unions let anyone make a club before seeing what the students who they represent what we want is a concern- the funds they control on our interests can be accessed by anyone to create more useless groups.
Let me make this clear, it does not make me feel all good that someone has "freedom" like this to access funds for whatever reason they come up with - because it is suprisingly similar to a politician abusing departmental funds as you put it before. its not "freedom" at all its more like theft

and more often than not these groups can be pretty exclusive and do nothing than ask the other students to pay for lunch for them once everynow and then to do whatever it is they do...im sure they have a list of objectives in paper somewhere, but i doubt it would be like that for some of the minor groups if you were to actually attend. they make the groups exclusive in a sense because they dont want other students to realise what a waste of a service it is...every service at uts does this to an extent because all you ever get is this boxed in feeling at uts and that maybe theyre hiding behind their groups for a good time at the expense of other uni students

how would you like it if because funds went to create the "indonesian cooking club for the 21st century" you did not recieve adequate service from needed areas

the idea of "i should pay for only what i use" is not an evil plot, people only use this concept when asking how can we better use funds!! no1 said the first union service to go should be the legal advocacy service ...this is more anti vsu blindness who like to exaggerate everything and have gone from protecting our interests to protecting their arses

and also once again let me make these things clear for you:

"if vsu you comes to be instated" yes it will and the unions and association will still exist afterwards, the only things that change is that without forcing the students to pay for EVERYTHING like the "freedom/theft" of funding and resources they are forced to think alike the students again and provide NEEDED services

"there will be no funding for things" no this is not the case, the point of this thread was to see what should be done after vsu with what funds people voluntarily provide, funds unions raise and are given and how student representation can be improved- with this new strain on the system it will make things better if some people spent less time yelling at a brick wall like the government and more time actually doing something useful and applying our minds to our advantage- "whatever doesnt kill you makes you stronger"

"the solution is to go and fight for what you what changed - not to abolish the whole system! " and you say we should not be communists.lol stop taking things out of context when this is a thread about the effect of vsu on uts students...the solution you think will change things will not change things- it is a ridiculous idea to say the least because you are not being resonable

this is just another example of how the unions and associations at uts can provide us with mixed up and muddled information- what they should be doing is thinking ahead and making plans- but they are spending time and money on this issue by lying to students about their situation

without the funds of all uts students we can not possibly provide the service of legal advocacy and representation- what a load of bullshit used to scare people, because in the end thats the only way how they get a response out of the students, by trying to scare us into seeing their point of view

the sad thing is their point of view has changed into their own standpoint; useless spending which puts strain on other things and lies about our future studies and representation

 

[Wild Dan Hibiki]

Plus, what about K-gai? If the union can no longer support facilties out there it will not be financially viable for independent contractors to provide these services to such a small number of students. You can kiss shops and bars out there goodbye. The same goes for all regional campuses of any university.

hmm... never thought of that, k-gai is already boring as it is