Homosexuality - Choice or No? Disorder or No? (3 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

Townie, I don't think religions as much to be blamed as you think...

 

[Vahl]

*shrugs
I don't know. I'm not gay and sure as hell grateful for that.

Ha! I'm not straight and sure as hell am grateful for that.
It is a matter of perspective.

 

[Sweets]

I think it is something inate within you. Its just like being straight is the 'norm' for some people being gay is too. I know this guy is a ultra conservative and hates gays but irony of all ironys he is gay himself...

 

[loquasagacious]

Lol good point Vahl.

I think religion does play a major part, although today its power to directly disciminate is vastly reduced from its former powers. Faith has played a major role in shaping society and its fingerprints are on all the things which do disciminate against homosexuality like our laws and our mores.

 

[LaraB]

of course homosexual can choose not to act on their impluses, but why should we have to, sex impluses are as basic as a need for food or water, and nobody should have to choose not to act on basic impluses because it doesnt fit societies definition of right or wrong.
religion is the confounding factor here. if religion didnt condem homosexuality, neither would society, the 90% of people who are heterosexual could sustain population growth, removing the argument that the earth needs procreation. people dont choose to be heterosexual, nor do they choose to be homosexual, it's completley ingrained. if anything is a social construct, it's love (tho i believe that love, true love, is beyond the reach of society or science).

a minority of people are Aboriginal, do we say they have a disorder because they dont fit the "norm", and dont give me the argument that "but aboriginals being aboriginal doesnt affect their life e.g. ability to have children" it does affect their life, they die 30 years younger than anybody else, they have a low tolerance to alcohol etc. yet we dont label race a disorder. people with red hair are a minority, they get sunburned more easily, is redhair a disorder no? the only difference here is religon, that religion has imposed a moral prohibitation on homosexuality thus people think it's wrong, end of story

you cannot compare race to sexual orientation because as i said before physical traits are different to lifestyle choices and as i said too, sexual orientation is a lifestyle choice not a choice required for 'survival' as such

religion isn't the confounding factor - i am agnostic, as are my parents, my brothers, heaps of my friends, some think homosexuals should all be shot, i think much as i disgaree with it who cares, they're not hurting me so big deal...

surprisingly a great deal of the population don't need organised religion to tell them how to live their lives so you can't say conclusively its the only reason...its one of many reasons.

as i said before, everything you raised is about physical traits that are not created through genetic mutation or something of the like so no they are not disorders, they are simply different characterstics. Being in the minority doesnt mean you are/have a disorder necessarily... if you're saying aboriginals are not the 'norm' then what is? white anglo men?... what about in japan? or france? or nigeria?...
just because you aren't the majority doesn't mean you don't fit the 'norm' in a sense of whether you are seen as a result of a 'disorder' or not... being aboriginal is not a choice and it is in no way 'unnatural'... just because a characteristic disadvanatges you doesn't mean its a disorder...'

on this logic, it could be said that all men have a disorder as they die younger than women.,..its extreme i know but it is the same logic...

just my opinion just as you gave yours so no point in really arguing i guess cause obviously people believe totally different things and being a half aussie-half asian middle class 18 yr old female Agnostic, im guessing my beliefs are far different from yours to start with

 

[Samie_Loo]

its all up to the person... things can change your life in a second... i think its definately a choice...

 

[LaraB]

The sad thing is, Judaism's original reason for outlawing homosexuality was that the jewish elders were afraid that their race would become extinct unless it kept producing children to combat the other races in the Middle East.

So it was never a 'moral' issue.

People didn't seem to understand the point I was making by comparing homosexuality to being colourblind.

If i am colourblind, I don't have the same ability to see things as you do - like being able to see orange versus red traffic lights (or green if the light is really bad)for example. That does affect the way I live my life. So what?

What is so different about having red hair versus being gay?

We don't try to "fix" people with red hair so why should we try to "fix" gays?

What fucking concern is it of yours that someone else is different to you?

Normally the response is "because its not normal"

What the hell is normal, and why do people want to be normal?

If people like you are normal then I am really glad that I am not.

P.S: Heterosexuality is a social construct also (just go back to the time of the Greeks - they didn't even know what heterosexuality was).

how is that sad? its no different than wars that kill off other races to prevent them invading etc..right or wrong its how society advances and changes

i got what you meant about the colour blind thing but i still think its a different issue as it affects physically how you see things not how you live your life as such...i mean, if you're colourblind, you can still get married, have kids, are unlikely to be discriminated against on that basis, you can't choose to change it as such just by making that decision etc...
what i meant was a lifestyle choice and a medically recognised condition should be regarded differently cuase the cause and effect are way different...

i get what you mean about people shouldn't care just cause someone's different but i think a lot of people have mentioned taht they think its wrong/stupid/unnatural etc but didnt say that they really care in the end coz it doesn't affect them..the question was whether its a choice or soe entrenched 'condition' and if this is a disorder or not... so i don't think its a matter of people caring that it happens, more just disagreeing about why it happens

 

[Atticus.]

homosexuality is not a choice...
i liken it to laraB's situuation
she didnt just wake up one morning and decide to be a dribbling idiot. she was born that way

 

[LaraB]

homosexuality is not a choice...
i liken it to laraB's situuation
she didnt just wake up one morning and decide to be a dribbling idiot. she was born that way

nice to see you returning to randomly insulting me for no reason....
that post is useless and totally not constructive

you might like to read the forum guideliness....

Arrow The "News, Current Affairs & Politics" Posting Guidelines
1. Posts contribute to an environment which fosters open discussion. We expect members to treat each other with a certain courtesy. If you disagree with a view, explain why, and don't insult someone for their views. However, obviously certain views will not be tolerated, for example rude, racist and sexist.


2. Posts aren't spam.

 

[Atticus.]

nice to see you returning to randomly insulting me for no reason....
that post is useless and totally not constructive

*cue violins*

 

[LaraB]

what? how is it a lifestyle choice? Do you have any proof of this? How can I decide tomorrow "RIGHT IM NOT EVER GOING TO LOOK AT MEN SEXUALLY AGAIN".

You seriously have no understanding of sexuality do you. I'm telling you - I can't just not be attracted to men anymore - no more than I can change how I see colours. I also can't suddenly decide not to be attracted to women anymore. It is genetic and denying your genetic makeup is really stupid. I mean, you can deny you are a blonde or a brunette but you still are aren't you - no matter what "lifestyle choice" you have made.

Lets stop going on about "but you cant have children or be married". Gays can do both, just not be sexually attracted to their partners. They make a lifestyle choice to marry sometimes but that is to appease society and not themselves.

Plus, why the fuck is colour deficiency a medically recognised condition? I see colours different to you. You think differently to me. Wow, genetics at work. There are no normal people - everyone is unique. Homosexuals are still high functioning individuals - it doesn't impair their ability to live unlike serious medical conditions like down syndrome. Society has nothing to do with this.

i answered that stuff earlier in bits n pieces...so i'll just say as i said it just comes down to opinion..

there's plenty of proof either way - you may say its perdetermined and not a choice, but i could fin dplenty of evidence to the contrary....
yes i know you believe its genetic but you haven't given proof so as i said it comes down to a matter of opinion

i don't know why colour blindness is a medically recognised condition as such but i do know that it is medically recognised and homosexuality is not....

btu since most people can see all colours etc it is fair to say that that is the norm and that those who can't are not... i mean..would you say that someone born almost entirely blind is the norm just because they don't see things the way the rest of us do and they believe that they are the norm and the vast moajority ere abnormal?

any reputable psych study addressed thr ole of environment as well as instilled characterstics so it isn't right to say society has nothing to do with it...

as far as saying i don't unerstand sexuality - exactly the same as every point everyone's raised - its all just opinion...you may think i dont but clearly as you don't know me and we have different beliefs there's no way you can assert that.

agree to disagree i guess

 

[Xayma]

LaraB: http://www.boredofstudies.org/community/showpost.php?p=1588528&postcount=18

Could you please find this evidence to the contrary now?

 

[james_chappo]

Homosexuality is genetic!

 

[LaraB]

homosexuality natural occurs in animals without thought - do they make lifestyle choices?

homosexuality is a human construct - you can't refer it to animals..
its been shown that humans and other animal processes differ and they are capable of making certain choices differently and for differnt reasons and understanding different situations so its a different thing

 

[kami]

you cannot compare race to sexual orientation because as i said before physical traits are different to lifestyle choices and as i said too, sexual orientation is a lifestyle choice not a choice required for 'survival' as such

You *can* compare race with sexual determination as it is something we always have, whether a person desires a man or woman physically or romantic is completely outside their region of choice, *how* they deal with and express these feelings are choices though and should *not* be confused with the desire itself.

religion isn't the confounding factor - i am agnostic, as are my parents, my brothers, heaps of my friends, some think homosexuals should all be shot, i think much as i disgaree with it who cares, they're not hurting me so big deal...

surprisingly a great deal of the population don't need organised religion to tell them how to live their lives so you can't say conclusively its the only reason...its one of many reasons.

Religion may not dictate every aspect of our society *now* , but it did play a very large part in constructing the foundation for society's views today. Can you honestly say that Western society for example isn't structured from Christian or Jewish values? You may say that society today isn't religious but that is because we have slowly moved away from it, just as we have *very* slowly moved away from certain misconceptions.

as i said before, everything you raised is about physical traits that are not created through genetic mutation or something of the like so no they are not disorders, they are simply different characterstics. Being in the minority doesnt mean you are/have a disorder necessarily... if you're saying aboriginals are not the 'norm' then what is? white anglo men?... what about in japan? or france? or nigeria?...
just because you aren't the majority doesn't mean you don't fit the 'norm' in a sense of whether you are seen as a result of a 'disorder' or not... being aboriginal is not a choice and it is in no way 'unnatural'... just because a characteristic disadvanatges you doesn't mean its a disorder...'

on this logic, it could be said that all men have a disorder as they die younger than women.,..its extreme i know but it is the same logic...

just my opinion just as you gave yours so no point in really arguing i guess cause obviously people believe totally different things and being a half aussie-half asian middle class 18 yr old female Agnostic, im guessing my beliefs are far different from yours to start with

and this I believe is the whole point that has been stated by wikiwiki and townie "Being a minority doesn't mean you have a disorder", being homosexual or bi-sexual or heterosexual or any other variety does not mean you have a disorder in a similar logic to being male or aboriginal or red haired or being colour blind or owning a piggybank does not mean you have a disorder.

 

[LaraB]

LaraB: http://www.boredofstudies.org/community/showpost.php?p=1588528&postcount=18

Could you please find this evidence to the contrary now?

sure - no problem since as i said there's heaps out there for both sides...

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html - yes im not religious but this site does have valid info with scientific basis as well as religious basis

there's stuff in my sociology text book - by Keith Grint..can't be bothered typing it out

http://www.gaytostraight.org/speaking.asp

http://www.cfacr.org/issues/homo/causes/
Sexual desire and behavior are flexible as demonstrated by the Kinsey Institute in 1970. It reported(9) that "81% of 684 gays and 93% of 293 lesbians had changed or shifted either their sexual feelings or behaviors after age 12.58% of the gays and 77% of the lesbians reported a second shift in sexual orientation; 31% of the gays and 49% of the lesbians reported a third shift; and 13% of the gays and 30% of the lesbians reported even a fourth shift in sexual orientation before "settling" into adult homosexuality," notes Cameron "The shifts reported by these subjects varied in degree, but some were quite dramatic - about a quarter of gays and a third of lesbians once had heterosexual desires and 5% of heterosexual men and 3% of heterosexual women once had substantial homosexual desires. Heterosexuals in the study were much less likely to report shifts in their orientation. Even so, 29% of 337 heterosexual men and 14% of 140 heterosexual women reported at least one shift; while 4% of the men and 1% of the women reported at least three shifts. Immutable things like eye color or skin color don't change once, much less three or four times!"

http://www.cfacr.org/issues/homo/causes/2004-10-22-titanic-of-gay-rights.shtml
Homosexuality is not a "genetic identity." It is "a complex conditioned behaviour, which can and does change," writes Gend.

"As to the exact causes of homosexuality, the medical jury is still out. But the baseless claim, promoted by Justice Michael Kirby and others, that gays are just born that way, is given no support by the American Psychiatric Association." Indeed the APA Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation (2000) states: "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."

http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/content.asp?context=article&id=630
has both sides - for and against nature and nurture

there's heaps more but i can't be bothered going through them all... just search in google or the Aus medical assoc page or the American Psych. assoc page - there's load of pages showing both persepctives...

as i said - just a matter of opinion as there is plenty of evidence that could be used for either sides and i personally believe it is not biological.

 

[townie]

if homosexuality is a "lifestyle choice", then so is heterosexuality

 

[LaraB]

You *can* compare race with sexual determination as it is something we always have, whether a person desires a man or woman physically or romantic is completely outside their region of choice, *how* they deal with and express these feelings are choices though and should *not* be confused with the desire itself.

Religion may not dictate every aspect of our society *now* , but it did play a very large part in constructing the foundation for society's views today. Can you honestly say that Western society for example isn't structured from Christian or Jewish values? You may say that society today isn't religious but that is because we have slowly moved away from it, just as we have *very* slowly moved away from certain misconceptions.

and this I believe is the whole point that has been stated by wikiwiki and townie "Being a minority doesn't mean you have a disorder", being homosexual or bi-sexual or heterosexual or any other variety does not mean you have a disorder in a similar logic to being male or aboriginal or red haired or being colour blind or owning a piggybank does not mean you have a disorder.

as i said, i believe you can't compare race and sexual orientation because i believe that the evidence against genetics as a cause is stronger whereas race is something you'd be hard pressed to find someone who says that its something you choose..i mean... im fair skinned, brown hair and eyes... i can't just become kenyan because i feel that's what i'm meant to be

i didnt say religion isn't important..i siad it isn't the ONLY cause...in know so much is based on religion and personally that's why i think there are problems in certain aspects of our lives... i simply said it canoot be said to be the root of the problem as there are a very large number of people who are not religious in any way

as i said.,..its all opinion... its like the whole "is there a god" argument or "are men smarter than women" or "are all women born with mothering skills".... no side has solild proof

 

[absolution*]

"are men smarter than women" .... no side has solild proof

Well lets take me and you as a sample. I am smarter than you. Proven.

 

[Atticus.]

as i said, i believe you can't compare race and sexual orientation because i believe that the evidence against genetics as a cause is stronger whereas race is something you'd be hard pressed to find someone who says that its something you choose..i mean... im fair skinned, brown hair and eyes... i can't just become kenyan because i feel that's what i'm meant to be

i didnt say religion isn't important..i siad it isn't the ONLY cause...in know so much is based on religion and personally that's why i think there are problems in certain aspects of our lives... i simply said it canoot be said to be the root of the problem as there are a very large number of people who are not religious in any way

as i said.,..its all opinion... its like the whole "is there a god" argument or "are men smarter than women" or "are all women born with mothering skills".... no side has solild proof

please. oh please