Homosexuality - Choice or No? Disorder or No? (2 Viewers)

[Xayma]

sure - no problem since as i said there's heaps out there for both sides...

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html - yes im not religious but this site does have valid info with scientific basis as well as religious basis

1) No researcher has found provable biological or genitic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior

Occasionally you may read about a scientific study that suggests that homosexuality is an inherited tendency, but such studies have usually been discounted after careful scrutiny or attempts at replication. No one has found a single heredible genetic, hormonal or physical difference between heterosexuals and homosexuals - at least none that is replicable. (9, 12) While the absence of such a discovery doesn't prove at inherited sexual tendencies aren't possible, it suggests that none has been found because none exists.

Indeed, one of the sources I used stated that it pretty much disproves a single gene.

http://www.gaytostraight.org/speaking.asp

Contains nothing.

http://www.cfacr.org/issues/homo/causes/
Sexual desire and behavior are flexible as demonstrated by the Kinsey Institute in 1970. It reported(9) that "81% of 684 gays and 93% of 293 lesbians had changed or shifted either their sexual feelings or behaviors after age 12.58% of the gays and 77% of the lesbians reported a second shift in sexual orientation; 31% of the gays and 49% of the lesbians reported a third shift; and 13% of the gays and 30% of the lesbians reported even a fourth shift in sexual orientation before "settling" into adult homosexuality," notes Cameron "The shifts reported by these subjects varied in degree, but some were quite dramatic - about a quarter of gays and a third of lesbians once had heterosexual desires and 5% of heterosexual men and 3% of heterosexual women once had substantial homosexual desires. Heterosexuals in the study were much less likely to report shifts in their orientation. Even so, 29% of 337 heterosexual men and 14% of 140 heterosexual women reported at least one shift; while 4% of the men and 1% of the women reported at least three shifts. Immutable things like eye color or skin color don't change once, much less three or four times!"

"Sexual changes, five or more years after puberty, are exceptionally late and without biological precedent in development. But changes in tastes (e.g., food or entertainment) often take place around age 18."

Humans today are the only animals on Earth to have a teenage phase, yet we have very little idea why.

Makes sense then there isn't precedent. A more careful study of our direct ancestors who lacked the social structure we have would need to be undertaken but even then it isnt sure if they had an adolescent phase.

http://www.cfacr.org/issues/homo/causes/2004-10-22-titanic-of-gay-rights.shtml
Homosexuality is not a "genetic identity." It is "a complex conditioned behaviour, which can and does change," writes Gend.

"As to the exact causes of homosexuality, the medical jury is still out. But the baseless claim, promoted by Justice Michael Kirby and others, that gays are just born that way, is given no support by the American Psychiatric Association." Indeed the APA Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation (2000) states: "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."

I will agree that the above studies haven't been replicated but then again they have only been published within the last 12 months. Even if it isn't genetic it doesn't say it is possible to change. Also is it right to change anothers mind, it would be almost cult like to say this is the way you are suppose to behave especially when it isnt hurting anyone else.

http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/content.asp?context=article&id=630
has both sides - for and against nature and nurture

there's heaps more but i can't be bothered going through them all... just search in google or the Aus medical assoc page or the American Psych. assoc page - there's load of pages showing both persepctives...

as i said - just a matter of opinion as there is plenty of evidence that could be used for either sides and i personally believe it is not biological.

The above was published in 1997, well before the articles I published, so it could not have access the same data. It's amazing how many of those sites were religious. Well not really. But even if you then say it isn't biological, how can you say it is voluntary?

In fact only one of the articles was published after one of the main two. But alas it refrenced quotes from 2000.

 

[ur_inner_child]

trust me, there were times i forced myself to not-be-attracted to men entirely.

over about a year and a half, say in year 10, i forcefully kissed girls, denied men, and all sorts.

women are so much hotter than men....

i tried to make a choice.

*still straight*

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I see asqy and xayma keeping the sanity going, nice work.

I have posted extensively on equality regarding sexuality in the past and I don't want to enter the debate again here -- I will end up spending a great deal of energy composing particularly vitriolic and disarming attacks on those who DARE say that to be gay is wrong, when I could be studying for exams. I don't want to throw away marks on the stupid or the ignorant.

It is easy for us straight folk to stand back and let our discomforts or prejudices run wild. But when you use your head, actually reason it through, it is absolutely irrational to denounce homosexuality as morally wrong.

I will suggest you take my uncle as an example. He has been a Morman his whole life, he married, had kids. But he eventually came out as gay. He could not deny himself any longer. This meant expulsion from the church, rejection by various family members, and of course the prejudices of a great deal of people. (Though randomly, he did meet Justice Kirby somehow through friends).

Anyway, the point I make is this. In a world of hate towards gays, why would someone CHOOSE to be gay? It seems to me plainly obvious that it is not a matter of choice. Given it is not a matter of choice, it cannot be wrong to be gay.

 

[transcendent]

anyone see that episode of south park where Stan tried to make his gay dog Sparky un-gay?

 

[Tofu.Dull.Full]

I dont think gays or les are born that way. It's totally an environmental factor. I read a scientific mag stating that a person becomes a homo because they are not "close" by his/her same sex parent.

A boy becomes gay when he does not have a strong relationship by his dad
A girl becomes les when she does not have a strong relationship by her mother

Many gays are raised in a single parent environmet. Name a famous gay person look up thier biography and i beat u most of them does not have a father figure, their father had left them, their had abuse them etc .

Do anyone agree with that?

Can any real gay or les reply to that, where u Very close, equally loved by ur parents.

Im not saying that gays/les are nesscary be raised in single parent familes, it might be the father has a job and doesnt spend much time with his boy, and that boy needs a male role model.
For example its quite rare for a boy to be gay when his father always play footy, baseball etc with him. and vise versa with les.

 

[Royston]

A boy becomes gay when he does not have a strong relationship by his dad
A girl becomes les when she does not have a strong relationship by her mother

This is way to vague to be considered valid. I don't have a strong relationship with my dad, but oh! Wait! I'm not gay! And then there is the example Asquithian had pointed out. Really, a gay person cannot be completely judged on behaviour. Sure, there are some that fit the stereotype to a key, but it doesn't exactly mean they're gay. They just... act gay.

Can any real gay or les reply to that, where u Very close, equally loved by ur parents.

*sighs* :/

 

[Xayma]

I dont think gays or les are born that way. It's totally an environmental factor. I read a scientific mag stating that a person becomes a homo because they are not "close" by his/her same sex parent.

A boy becomes gay when he does not have a strong relationship by his dad
A girl becomes les when she does not have a strong relationship by her mother

Many gays are raised in a single parent environmet. Name a famous gay person look up thier biography and i beat u most of them does not have a father figure, their father had left them, their had abuse them etc .

Do anyone agree with that?

Sir Ian McKellan, Oscar Wilde, Alan Turing.
Oscar Wilde could just be considered bisexual and Alan Turing's father was in civil service but then again so where alot of peoples fathers.

Can any real gay or les reply to that, where u Very close, equally loved by ur parents.

Im not saying that gays/les are nesscary be raised in single parent familes, it might be the father has a job and doesnt spend much time with his boy, and that boy needs a male role model.
For example its quite rare for a boy to be gay when his father always play footy, baseball etc with him. and vise versa with les.

I can name a number of gay friends who have good relationships with both of their parents. I can also name alot of straight friends who don't have a good relationship with the parent of their respective sex.

 

[loquasagacious]

Besides wouldnt freud be happier if the determining parental relationship was with the childs opposite sex parent?

 

[imsooverskool]

hmmm, i just have to add my two cents. In my opinion, i think sexuality (both hetero and homo) is determined by your genetic makeup, a person does not wake up and go i choose to fuck men, i choose to fuck women, i choose to fuck both- i think it is all pre determined.

That being said, i think most people have bi sexual tendancies to some extent. I am a straight female but i can honestly say that i have questioned my sexuality on a number of occassions, but i have never ever really considered myself gay, i just didnt find it 'natural' for me. My best friend is a gay male and i believe when he tells me this, he didnt choose to be gay, he was always attracted to males, and while he says he may have questioned his sexuality, for him there was never a choice, him liking penis was just the way it was.

Im just curious if other straight people out there, have ever actively questioned there sexuality? I know its a long shot to actually think that ppl will be honest in answering this question, but i wanna know.

 

[loquasagacious]

It seems strange to me to imagine sexuality as a societally defined construct. On the one hand yes it is logical enough in the case of heterosexuals in that society pretty much conditions from birth that boys marry girls hae children and lie happily ever after. Whereas homosexuality (the sexuality as opposed to the term itself) is not conditioned or socially constructed indeed where it is evident in society it is largely as a bad thing - the opposite to living happily ever after. Perhaps the reason why so many homosexuals do try and have heterosexual relationships.

So unless homsexuality is taken to be some kind of rebellion against the norm then to me it doesn't make sense for it to be a societally defined construct.

 

[frog12986]

I've seen and known homosexuals from both stong patriarchal families and single parent relationships that are relatively insecure. Whilst family can often alter an individuals 'socialisation' process, homosexuality extends beyond that process itself. I don't think anyone can definitively attribute sexuality to 'choice' or 'genetics' in their own right. In most cases it may even be the intersection between these two concepts that determines such a preference and/or whether or not someone follows any 'pre-determined' inclination that may exist....

 

[Hippy La-Laa]

Most of the gay guys I know, the Mother was the one who left. It's also the Mother who has had difficulty coming to terms with having a homosexual son.

I dunno, I love gay men. I'd love for my children to be gay. But it's interesting seeing other people's angle on this.

 

[loquasagacious]

Sorry Asqy that came across as: its environmental just because..... you would make a good judge.

I do not dispute that environmental factors do play a role however I think you are downplaying the genetic/biochemical part. I think that you are given a predisposition gentically/biochemically (that clearly varies in magnitude - logical enough especially in the biochemical case) and that environmental factors contribute to whether or not the predisposition is suppressed or embraced.

Thus in our society I argue that homosexuals are not socially created because we do not societally place a compunction on heterosexuals to be homosexual, whereas we do to be heterosexual.

In a more coherant form: As a society we currently encourage people to be heterosexuals or try to be neutral, we do not however encourage people to be homsexual.

Conservatives might extrapolate from this that homsexual couples should not be allowed to 'have' children as they will encourage them to be homosexual. A position i reject for two reasons:
A) it assumes that homsexuals are inferior otherwise we wouldn't mind children being 'made' homosexual.
B) it wouldn't happen anyway, even if a homsexual couple did overtly or unconsciously encourage homsexuality society itself is mostly heterosexual and encourages heterosexuality. So in the net result would be neutrality on the issue.

Similarily the net effect of a heterosexual couple advocating neutrality in a hetersexual society would be a leaning towards heterosexuality, something i believe is borne out by denial by homosexuals bought up in neutral households. Finally I believe that little can be done to make society more neutral in that by its very being it endorses heterosexuality.

Oh and as an interesting aside: roughly 10% of the world population is homosexual, a pattern reflected in every country and throughout history. Australia however sits at 17% active homosexually.

 

[Xayma]

Oh and as an interesting aside: roughly 10% of the world population is homosexual, a pattern reflected in every country and throughout history. Australia however sits at 17% active homosexually.

Can you give me a source for the 17% (although active homosexually usually implies a homosexual experience within the last 10 years or so, which greatly increases the amount due to puberty and experimentation).

Also the 10% figure is a bit iffy compared to later studies, it is likely to be around 2-10% (still a very significant amount) depending on how you define homosexuality.

 

[loquasagacious]

10% is just a figure I've seen around.

17% is from the Good Medecine magazine , sorry can't remember the study they were quoting.

 

[townie]

i'd be interested to know the Aboriginal view of homosexuality, does anybody have a source on that?

 

[im an idiot]

i'd be interested to know the Aboriginal view of homosexuality, does anybody have a source on that?

why?

and 17% is probably too big, thats bigger than the african american % in america

 

[loquasagacious]

I was also suprised by that stat.

Also suprised that african american are < 17%...

 

[xeuyrawp]

This has been asked so many times. My proof that it's a genetic issue, probably a genetic malfunction, is (summarised thus).

1. Sexuality is very deep in our subconscious. If you raised a bunch of people without any influence of sexuality, they'd still all fuck.
2. Gay people, nomatter what they say, would prefer to be straight. (Either believe me as a gay person, or use rational thought).
3. Doing queer things and being queer are 2 different things, straight guys mess around with gay guys, and gay guys with girls. Gay people CAN generally fuck girls.
4. In year 3 I remember first thinking about kissing a guy. YEAR THREE! Isn't this early? Yes.

All these things would show that being gay, of course only in my case, is on a primitive, basic level. On the same level that makes guys testosterone go crazy when they're angry, on the same level that makes them wanna fuck girls, etc etc.

People have to remember, though, that being genuinly non-straight and its manifestation (liking guys) could easily be two different things.

This basic level is dictated by our most basic makesups, which I believe cannot be altered by nurture, rather by 1. Parents genes, and 2. Genetic fuckups.

I don't believe it's passed on by genes, but rather a genetic fuckup that itself cannot be passed on.

-Pwar the fag.

 

[Vahl]

why?

and 17% is probably too big, thats bigger than the african american % in america

Here's the article where the 17% came from:

http://www.pervscan.com/2003/10/06/america-australia-are-gayest-countries/

bye