Immigrants and the Australian Identity (2 Viewers)

[Captain Gh3y]

An Australia not invaded by the British would have been invaded by the French a little later instead, or failing that, they would now all be either Muslims, speaking Japanese or completely gone.

 

[katie_tully]

I think the Dutch would have colonised us, considering they found us before England. They were just a little bit too slow in their thought processes.

I didn't call you a cockhead or a cocksucker Hot-Shot, but thank you, you saved me the effort.

 

[katie_tully]

nyhow, we can't really change history. but i guess, we can attempt to amend the atrocities done in history.

Why should we? It's history, Why should we be responsible for "mending" the atrocities? The artocities were not inflicted upon present day Aboriginals. Present day Aboriginals protest and whinge about our government and their supposed lack of opportunities and services. They protest outside of the Commonwealth Games with banners saying 'Stolenwealth Games', and then demand to be allowed to represent themselves?
Make up your mind. Do you want to be part of Australia, or do you want to keep pushing yourselves away?
I know if I opened up a 'White only' job recruitment place, a white only medical centre and etcetera, I would be branded racist. Funny how it doesn't work the other way round.

 

[erawamai]

Why should we? It's history, Why should we be responsible for "mending" the atrocities? The artocities were not inflicted upon present day Aboriginals. Present day Aboriginals protest and whinge about our government and their supposed lack of opportunities and services. They protest outside of the Commonwealth Games with banners saying 'Stolenwealth Games', and then demand to be allowed to represent themselves?

Throwing away history and choosing to just ignore it isn't a test which the whole of Australia chooses to apply to all past wrongs. Even though young Liberal supporters were not directly impacted by the wrongs of Gough Whitlam they still like to winge about him.

Either way the ATSI people are disadvantaged today to an extent due to the way they were treated in the past. It's not exactly easy to mend the past but to suggest that just because the atrocities were not committed on present day ATSI people means the current generation of people should not complain is a pretty narrow view. It denys people the right to complain about being consequentially affected by something. It should also be considered that the average Australia will complain about things that never directly affected but affected them by consequence. I;m sure you believe that you have a right complain or make a noise about something that happened to your grandmother if you feel it was unjust, it doesnt affect you directly, it affects you consequentially but you should still have a right to say something about it. In any case there are a number of ATSI people who are still alive today that were directly impacted on my the bad treatment.

While I believe that welfare dependency is not a good thing history should not be forgotten for the sake of convinience.

I know if I opened up a 'White only' job recruitment place, a white only medical centre and etcetera, I would be branded racist. Funny how it doesn't work the other way round.

Procedural versus outcome equality. 'Disadvantaged' groups (like country folk see agrarian socialism) are given some help. People like pauline hanson believe this is reverse discrimination even when her areas are massive beneficiaries of agrarian socialism due to its disadvantaged and minority status.

Why the hell should countruy people get hospitals? They aint part of the majority! That money could be spent on better hospitals for the city.

 

[katie_tully]

Dude, sif I even care about your bleeding heart rants anymore. Next time you happen to have a medical emergency out in the country and you need medical assistance, I hope you're not white coz you're going to be bleeding onto the floor. Unless you're Aboriginal, coz then you can just stroll in to your 'aboriginals only' medical centre and seek immediate assistance.

I;m sure you believe that you have a right complain or make a noise about something that happened to your grandmother if you feel it was unjust

No. Not if it happened to her 200 years ago. Also, my Granny is a big girl, she can fight her own battles if she wishes to.

It should also be considered that the average Australia will complain about things that never directly affected but affected them by consequence

O rely? It appears to me as though all you ever do is make gross generalisations about what the 'average' Australian thinks. According to your rants in other threads, the average Australian is a redneck yokel who sympathises with Pauline Hanson and wants to burn anything foreign at the stake.
I guess if that's the case, Australians related to the first convicts should be asking Britain for compensation? The first fleeters weren't exactly treated with tender love and care, AND it did happen 200 years ago so I guess we've got a basis for claim. Right? I suppose anybody who's great, great, great grandfathers were treated with contempt and injustice should be complaining as well.

Let's not forget the decendants of people who lost their entire fortunes during the Great Depression. It didn't happen to them, but I'm sure if we dig a little bit deeper we'll find something that has impacted them consequentially because of the depression.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

In his opinion, the right of a sovereign nation to determine who is allowed to reside within it, is actually white racialism. So yeah.

 

[katie_tully]

In his opinion, everything is racism.

 

[transcendent]

Even the guy in charge of representing Aborignal Australians stated that they need to get of welfare and learn to deal with it themselves.

 

[katie_tully]

When did this anti religion stance take effect, dear Trans?

 

[erawamai]

Dude, sif I even care about your bleeding heart rants anymore.

Come on be fair tully, if anything you posts are all over the place rants that avoid issues by using sarcasm to rebutt arguments.

Next time you happen to have a medical emergency out in the country and you need medical assistance, I hope you're not white coz you're going to be bleeding onto the floor. Unless you're Aboriginal, coz then you can just stroll in to your 'aboriginals only' medical centre and seek immediate assistance.

The use of bleeding heart to label anything that doesn't coincide with your point of view is chiche. In particular when I wasn't being very bleeding heart anyways with my points about the need to cut welfare dependancy. The simply point is that you cannot maintain country socialism practiced by the nationals and then have a winge about the socialism applied to aboriginal people. Well maybe you can have a winge because you feel the socialism practiced on the aboriginals is actually better than that practiced on you.

]No. Not if it happened to her 200 years ago. Also, my Granny is a big girl, she can fight her own battles if she wishes to.

Stolen generatiuon occured around between 80 and 30 years ago. Not 200.

You made the point that people shouldnt complain if something didn't happen to them. I made the point that that narrow pov denies people the chance to complain about something affects them as a consequence.

You complain about the state of hospitals and medical service in the bush for non ATSI people. IF your grandmother (insert any family member of loved one) dies due to the lack of services out in the bush are you going to tell me that you are going to put up and shut up because the bad thing didn't directly happen to you? Surely you recognise that this may have a consequential impact on you. Surely you recongise that the lack of services in the bush may have a consequential impact on you. Surely you should be allowed to complain and be heard.

O rely? It appears to me as though all you ever do is make gross generalisations about what the 'average' Australian thinks.

It can be anyone they don't have to be Australia.

Anyone in the world will complain about things that dont directly affect them. Regardless of nationality, race, religion blah blah whatever. It's a human trait. Just like young Liberals will winge about Gough Whitlam and young Labourites will winge about Menzies. Doesn't directly affect them but it does by consequence.

 

[katie_tully]

You just made two mistakes.
The first was by telling me the stolen generation happened 30-80 years ago, and therefore consequentially has bearing on Aboriginals growing up today.
Secondly you refered to my grandmother dying now, and how it would have a consequential impact on me.

Yes. If my grandmother died tomorrow due to a lack of regional medical services, I would be pissed. If an Aboriginals grandmother was stolen from their family tomorrow, I'm sure they could be pissed about it too.
Trying to link my grandmothers death to a current problem, and trying to link the fact that Aboriginals won't help themselves TODAY, to a past problem makes no sense?

Does the stolen generation affect every single Aboriginal who is weflare dependent? No. Would my grandmothers death, due to inadequate resources affect the entire rural population? No. so why are you trying to make it out as though something that happened in history is the cause of all ATSI problems today?
Those affected by the stolen generation, and those who can lay claim to being affected by it, are those who were actually removed from their families. And indeed many of them have come foward about the situation. They are the ones to whom the apologies are due.

 

[erawamai]

The first was by telling me the stolen generation happened 30-80 years ago, and therefore consequentially has bearing on Aboriginals growing up today.
Secondly you refered to my grandmother dying now, and how it would have a consequential impact on me.
Yes. If my grandmother died tomorrow due to a lack of regional medical services, I would be pissed. If an Aboriginals grandmother was stolen from their family tomorrow, I'm sure they could be pissed about it too.

The issue is whether you recongise that people are allowed to complain about things that consequently affect them. Whether it happened yesterday or 50 years ago is a question of degree.

IF you want to square it up completely you may be a 35 year old adult. Your mother died when she was giving birth to you due to the parlos state of medical services in the bush. Is it right for someone to say that you should just get over it and seek to do nothing about the state of medical services in the bush because it happened 35 years ago?

Those affected by the stolen generation, and those who can lay claim to being affected by it, are those who were actually removed from their families. And indeed many of them have come foward about the situation. They are the ones to whom the apologies are due.

There you go again. Denying people the right to complain about being indirectly affected. I could apply the same argument to a 35 year old woman whoes mother died at birth due to the bad state of medical services in the bush and tell you to such up and get over it.

Do I have to keep reminding you that I'm not really in favour of mass ATSI webfare on the basis of the fact you are aboriginal?

My gripe is you denying certain people the right to say something about the past that consequentially affects them. ATSI people can say whatever they like but it doesnt mean that it should form a basis for welfare dependency.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

30 years ago?

I honestly didn't know that.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Well to be fair, the stolen generation didn't really occur at all, so you could quite easily place it anywhere from 30 to 200 years ago.

 

[katie_tully]

Er... If my mother died giving birth to me, there would be no use complaining about the state of medical services in the bush in 1971. If they were rectified in 35years I would have no basis for complaint.
So my mother died because of inadequate services, complaining about it 35 years later is going to achieve what?
If, 35 years later the services are STILL inadequate, then I would be complaining about the CURRENT state of services.

Who is denying them the right to complain? Complain all they want, it isn't achieving anthing.
Getting off your arse and making an example of yourself by fixing the CURRENT problem is so more far effective than constant whinging.

 

[katie_tully]

Yah NTB. The last instances of children being removed from their families occured in around the mid 70s.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The stolen generation did occur, I think it was the same sort of logic as women who adopt babies from africa now - they had their hearts in the right place. I mean abuse in Aboriginal families was rife with the explosion of alcoholism, in some cases I would say they did the right thing by taking the kids away.

 

[erawamai]

Er... If my mother died giving birth to me, there would be no use complaining about the state of medical services in the bush in 1971. If they were rectified in 35years I would have no basis for complaint.

Well obviously in your view the services in the bush have not been fixed.

So my mother died because of inadequate services, complaining about it 35 years later is going to achieve what?

Hopefully an improvement in medical services (if you still think medical services are still shit).

Getting off your arse and making an example of yourself by fixing the CURRENT problem is so more far effective than constant whinging.

How do bush people or aboriginal people fix the current problem? Winge and complain like you did about the state of non atsi medical services.

How do you propose that you fix the current problem other than by winging and complaining about the current system? All you have got so far is 'getting off your arse and making an example of yourself by fixing the current problem'. How exactly would that be done? Complain to a Nationals MP to make the parliament be more socialist to the non atsi people than to the atsi people?

 

[erawamai]

The stolen generation did occur, I think it was the same sort of logic as women who adopt babies from africa now - they had their hearts in the right place. I mean abuse in Aboriginal families was rife with the explosion of alcoholism, in some cases I would say they did the right thing by taking the kids away.

I personally think that in some cases it was done in good faith in others it was not (in reference to 'soothing the dying pillow' and a few ATSI mass killings in the NT and small pox contaminations). I think it was a mix of both good and bad faith.

 

[katie_tully]

I still do not comprehend your train of thought, honestly.

The services in the bush have not been fixed. THIS IS A CURRENT PROBLEM! It's not a matter of whether services in the bush sucked 10, 20 or 30 years ago. What is dwelling on past services going to do? Nothing!
It's like what is this constant dwelling on 200 years of Australian history going to do for Aboriginals who refuse to get out of the welfare cycle? Nothing, because by focusing on past problems, we don't put our energy or focus into the current issue!
Stop refering to the stolen generation, because it was not something that had bearing on the entire aboriginal race!

Considering that you think that medical services are still shit today I think you would still complain.

That doesn't even make sense? The current services are shit. Whether or not they were shit 35 years ago is irrelevant to me. I was not around 35 years ago! Hypothetically if I were, and my mother died because of it, what would scratching my arse saying "Whoa, the services in 1971 were shit, we need to solve that problem!!!" fix?
Saying that the services in 2006 suck is a completely different matter.