Is Kevin Rudd Too Right Wing For the Labor Party? (1 Viewer)

[MiTcHeLL4188]

We all know kevin rudd is a religious man, but seriously do you think this will buy the party more votes? or will disgruntled labor members move to greens over Kevin Rudds religious values?

seriously do people honestly think that if the ALP lose this federal election that kevin rudd will remain leader, especially if labors primary drops again and the greens challenge safe labor seats such as Sydney and Melbourne?

 

[timmyh]

Re: Is Kevin Rudd to right wing for the labor party?

politics (and this is seen in the majority of western nations) is dominated by those promoting the views of a particular religion.. in aus this is christianity.
I believe Rudd could be non-religious and promote the same values that he seens to be doing, but i do not think this would attract more green voters to vote labor. most ppl vote green not because they are a non-religious party, but because of their long standing emphasis on the environment etc... something which is winning them votes from labor because of the major issue it is becomming.
And, i hope, even if labor lose the next election that Rudd stays on as leader. he is a one of the better leaders federal labor has had in recent years, and has expertise in foregin affairs, particuarly with asian nations.... something that will play a major part in australia's future...

 

[volition]

Re: Is Kevin Rudd to right wing for the labor party?

I actually think Kevin Rudd leans more to the left than the average Labor party member.

 

[bshoc]

We all know kevin rudd is a religious man, but seriously do you think this will buy the party more votes? or will disgruntled labor members move to greens over Kevin Rudds religious values?

seriously do people honestly think that if the ALP lose this federal election that kevin rudd will remain leader, especially if labors primary drops again and the greens challenge safe labor seats such as Sydney and Melbourne?

I was unaware that christianity and social conservatism had been banned from the ALP, last time I checked it was the workers party not the party of left liberals (which would be the Democrats and Greens). Not too long ago Labors central powerbase were the catholic dominated unions, and still are to some extent. Have a look at how the ALP in aggregate voted in terms of issues like stem cells and gay marriage ..

 

[littlewing69]

You do realise that Christianity is not necessarily a right wing influence, right? If anything, it lends itself more to left-wing ideals.

 

[bshoc]

You do realise that Christianity is not necessarily a right wing influence, right? If anything, it lends itself more to left-wing ideals.

So things like abortion, drug injecting rooms and gay marriage lend themselves to christianity right? lol

And private charity and religious duty does not equate to theft and redistribution of income by the government, far from it.

 

[frog12986]

In a 'value' sense Rudd might be right-wing, however so is the greater proportion of the electorate. It seems to me however that the barrow Rudd will be pushing is more attuned to the left wing policies of the past that emphasise government intervention and control.

Despite this however, the 'right and left wing' premises on which policies were once developed is no longer as influential. Politics is less based upon ideology these days and more dependent upon short-term, vote buying policies.

I agree with littlewing to an extent. Certain left wing appraoches do have close links to christian values, and the likes of Peter Garrett are testament to this. Environment, welfare assistance, remedial intervention programs, are all synonomous with both interventionist and christian approaches.

 

[timmyh]

I find it ironic that Christianity has been so closely linked with the right. if u take a look at the emergence of Christianity in biblical times it would have been seen as a very left wing organisation, pretty much a rebellion against the status quo of Roman rule.
And i agree with frog... Politics has become more about short term vote winning compared to the idelogical roots from which parties, particuarly the ALP began.

 

[bshoc]

I agree with littlewing to an extent. Certain left wing appraoches do have close links to christian values, and the likes of Peter Garrett are testament to this. Environment, welfare assistance, remedial intervention programs, are all synonomous with both interventionist and christian approaches.

None of those are synonomous with christian approaches or ideals ...

 

[bshoc]

I find it ironic that Christianity has been so closely linked with the right. if u take a look at the emergence of Christianity in biblical times it would have been seen as a very left wing organisation, pretty much a rebellion against the status quo of Roman rule.

There are zero, repeat, zero common ideals or logical thought processes between the left and christianity, anything left is the very opposite of christianity.

Rebellion or revolution alone are not the sole domain of the left.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Before we start screaming about theocracies and the like:

- What is the evidence the Opposition Leader's personal beliefs are actively influencing his party's policies? You could make that case for Tony Abbott maybe, but what have we seen from Rudd so far to suggest religious values are behind Labor's stances?

- Remember in the last election one of the reasons (or so it's believed by some) for Latham's failure was pandering too much to the Greens, such as his policy regarding Tasmanian forests. He has been regarded by some as being too far to the left.
Does this suggest the traditional Labor voting base are unlikely to move to the Greens?

- The Deputy Opposition Leader is unquestionably from the 'left' of Labor so it's unlikely the party is shifting dramatically to the right (well, maybe it is if you compare it to the Whitlam era...).

Also I don't think it's fair to apply the Left or Right terms in a modern sense to the Roman Empire.

 

[timmyh]

whoa, things seemed to have become a little heated. First of all, i never meant to compare current day politics to biblical christianity, but just to point out that while in modern times Christianity seems to be stereotyped with right wing pollies this, from a very wide historical viewpoint was never the case.
And the comment about Christianity and the left of politics being opposites shows an incredible level of misunderstanding of these two movements. As Frog said before welfare is an example of this. One of the fundamental principles or Christianity is to help those fortunate than yourself, this is exactly what welfare is. I am not christian. I do not seek to promote it, or any other religions. However, there can be no doubt that religion, largely Christianity in Aus, influences politics.

 

[Lockhart]

I think anyone who looks at Rudd sees him as being a lot closer to the centre of politics than many out of the labour party.

What the captain says about Labor loosing badly at the last election due to the pandering to the greens is true.

Labor lost 2 seat and almost a thrid in tasmania due to the proposal to stop logging in large parts of tasmania. it was effectively trying to capture some of the green primary vote. trouble is that the green vote always will flow on preferences eventually to labor because it is unimaginable that they would direct it to the liberals first.

While Rudd is conservitive this is a good thing. the aim of any party to win an election is to win the centre ground, That being the christian aspiring middle class. the further a Labor leader leans to the centre the easier it is for him to win an election and that is because he can really on the more extreame non swinging voters not to cross the floor.

 

[spiny norman]

Isn't Latham the only leader the ALP has had who wasn't religious?

 

[littlewing69]

There are zero, repeat, zero common ideals or logical thought processes between the left and christianity, anything left is the very opposite of christianity.

If you repeat it enough, then perhaps you can pretend the Quakers, Liberation Theologians, Christian Socialists, Christian Anarchists, etc etc never existed?

 

[PoliticalExile]

We need to define "Right Wing" for this discussion so we can base our views on an established set of knowledge.

Lenin and his Socialists were considered "Left" wing as recently as 1994, yet the recent KGB archives and census have redefined what "Left" was, as we understood it then.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987

Typically communist socialism (state nationalistic socialism) is what the "Left" meant up until 1994 and Prof. Rummel's comprehensive studies on the social crimes of the allegedly leftist socialism of the Leninist USSR.

The Left: Killed 62 million (in concentration camps)
The Right: Killed 9 million (in concentration camps)

Perhaps we should consider describing Kevin Rudd as more to the center than the extremes of Left (62 million dead in Communist socialism) or Right (9 million dead in Nazi socialism).

Lets remember that from what we now know of 20th cent. history, that Liberalism is the center and not the extremes of either alleged Left or Right. Liberalism is not in the Left or the Right. Liberalism is in the center, it is where most individual freedoms occur and reside.

We need to start thinking of the Political Field as a Centric entity and not an extremist entity. We should be describing politicans such as Kevin Rudd by their relationship to the Center and not to the extremes. Instead of how close they are to emotional concepts of Left and Right, how close are they to the Center, the consensus? That way we advance our concept of what politics can be in a civilized intelligent society.

I think Kevin Rudd is slightly to the right of the Center in some of his policies.

 

[bshoc]

whoa, things seemed to have become a little heated. First of all, i never meant to compare current day politics to biblical christianity, but just to point out that while in modern times Christianity seems to be stereotyped with right wing pollies this, from a very wide historical viewpoint was never the case.
And the comment about Christianity and the left of politics being opposites shows an incredible level of misunderstanding of these two movements. As Frog said before welfare is an example of this. One of the fundamental principles or Christianity is to help those fortunate than yourself, this is exactly what welfare is. I am not christian. I do not seek to promote it, or any other religions. However, there can be no doubt that religion, largely Christianity in Aus, influences politics.

Again, giving out of the goodness of your own soul to the genuinely disadvantaged is not the same as the government taxing your income and then spending a little portion of it on welfare agencies, and the rest of it on things like the arms industry. People do not elect either how much tax they pay or where that tax is spent, two things that would need to happen before any sort of communal welfare could be considered adherent to chrsitian principle.

Just for the record, from a historical perspective the mission of every leftist was to wipe out religion and redistribute the income of anybody remotely successful in the financial sense.

 

[bshoc]

If you repeat it enough, then perhaps you can pretend the Quakers, Liberation Theologians, Christian Socialists, Christian Anarchists, etc etc never existed?

Christian Socialists are a walking oxymoron, and perhaps you would like to present how these people were consistant with leftist though rather that just naming names.

 

[withoutaface]

So things like abortion, drug injecting rooms and gay marriage lend themselves to christianity right? lol

And private charity and religious duty does not equate to theft and redistribution of income by the government, far from it.

Yeah, because restricting or outlawing genuine market services is heaps right wing.

 

[bshoc]

We need to define "Right Wing" for this discussion so we can base our views on an established set of knowledge.

Lenin and his Socialists were considered "Left" wing as recently as 1994, yet the recent KGB archives and census have redefined what "Left" was, as we understood it then.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987

Typically communist socialism (state nationalistic socialism) is what the "Left" meant up until 1994 and Prof. Rummel's comprehensive studies on the social crimes of the allegedly leftist socialism of the Leninist USSR.

The Left: Killed 62 million (in concentration camps)
The Right: Killed 9 million (in concentration camps)

Perhaps we should consider describing Kevin Rudd as more to the center than the extremes of Left (62 million dead in Communist socialism) or Right (9 million dead in Nazi socialism).

...

Thats still an incorrect count, the Nazis were just as left as the soviet union. Lets review the Nazi system:

* Little or no economic freedom
* De-emphasis on the indavidual
* De-emphasis on personal responsibility
* De-emphasis on traditional values (yes planned breeding cults are not the same as the nuclear family)
* All the hallmarks of wacko leftie ideals, such as obsession with greenery and overt intervention in the day to day life of the citizenry.

The nationalism argument doesen't fly either, as both the Soviet Union and Communist China were as equally nationalistic as the national socialist.