Is Patriotsm/nationalism good or bad? (1 Viewer)

[bigboyjames]

I am creating this thread after thinking about how the citizens of some countries react to or react towards the people of other countries. any how, i really don't see much use in patriotism. It's just a weapon that any higher organisation (namely the government) has used to influence individuals on a greater level than otherwise. There's nothing wrong with being proud of certain things your country does or has done. Patriotism is just a symbolic display of sentiment tho, and servers no cause but to simplify emotion leaving out coherent and individual thought among the masses. It's mass-sentiment, which is never good imo.

not to forget the fact that The nazis marched in the name of patriotism... To be patriotic is to render yourself a collective existence completely dependent on the predetermination exposed by those who self proclaim leadership and righteousness. Patriotism is the result of an uncontrolled overstimulated ego that overwhelms the natural weight of self ignorance (reminds you of a certain country?). Ultimately, patriotism is the result of mind control and collective programming. Once again collective thinking and dependance on a system that could very well fail.

Being proud is one thing, patriotic another.

 

[impervious182]

I think it's good, to an extent. As long as it doesn't become a radical ideology. I know that sounds vague...

Extreme patriotism and nationalism negates one's ability to see reason. Whereas mild patriotism and nationalism gives one a sense of brotherhood and unity - in the case of Australia, a relatively strong patriotism would in theory, transcend race and religion and so help Australia to be successfully multicultural and help to lower ethnic tensions. It unites people to a cause, finds a common thread through which they can relate.

How would one implement policies to promote this? I'm not sure... though in the case of North Korea, the gov. tries to create strong nationalism through anti-American sentiments. I don't think hate-politics works very successfully as it innevitably creates a violent, unstable society.

 

[Trefoil]

I am creating this thread after thinking about how the citizens of some countries react to or react towards the people of other countries. any how, i really don't see much use in patriotism. It's just a weapon that any higher organisation (namely the government) has used to influence individuals on a greater level than otherwise. There's nothing wrong with being proud of certain things your country does or has done. Patriotism is just a symbolic display of sentiment tho, and servers no cause but to simplify emotion leaving out coherent and individual thought among the masses. It's mass-sentiment, which is never good imo.

not to forget the fact that The nazis marched in the name of patriotism... To be patriotic is to render yourself a collective existence completely dependent on the predetermination exposed by those who self proclaim leadership and righteousness. Patriotism is the result of an uncontrolled overstimulated ego that overwhelms the natural weight of self ignorance (reminds you of a certain country?). Ultimately, patriotism is the result of mind control and collective programming. Once again collective thinking and dependance on a system that could very well fail.

Being proud is one thing, patriotic another.

Australian patriotism is good. It's humble, but steadfast and fair.

Unlike the annoying arrogance of American patriotism, or the ugly blindness of Chinese nationalism.

Considering nationalism's history, I'll vote bad. On balance, it seems to limit open-mindedness and free thought.

 

[impervious182]

Australian patriotism is good. It's humble, but steadfast and fair.

Unlike the annoying arrogance of American patriotism, or the ugly blindness of Chinese nationalism.

Considering nationalism's history, I'll vote bad. On balance, it seems to limit open-mindedness and free thought.

Yeah. I think that it needs to be split up into two different sections.

Mild

Extreme


After all both are completely different in terms of consequences and causes.

 

[rasengan90]

I don't really understand patriotism. Why be proud of something that has nothing to do with you? You didn't choose where your parents decided to do it. It also devalues the individual quite a bit and it is a bit exclusive.

 

[Josip Broz Tito]

cronulla

 

[Trefoil]

I don't really understand patriotism. Why be proud of something that has nothing to do with you? You didn't choose where your parents decided to do it. It also devalues the individual quite a bit and it is a bit exclusive.

Well I don't know about everybody else, but I for one am proud of Australia because it's an awesome country, not because my parents live here.

 

[JaredR]

I grew here, you flew here.

 

[Iron]

It also devalues the individual quite a bit and it is a bit exclusive.

Na, anti-nationalism/individualism artificially inflates the value of the individual and leads to social alienation/community breakdown. I think people should always be encouraged to place values in things external to themselves. I understand the dehumanizing herd mentality is a concern, but so is narcissism

 

[A High Way Man]

“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” - George Bernard Shaw

 

[Iron]

I dont like talking like this, but people do form unique bonds with their land and it leads to a unique way of interpreting the world. Russians for instance are depressing drunks highly accustomed to exploitation because Russia is shit. Italians by contrast are vibrant, happy people with a zest for life because Italy is rich and fertile.
The extent to which modern technology has alienated us from whatever land we happen to be living is open to question.
THe airconditioner is one of the greatest destroyers of culture and environment the world has seen imo

 

[rasengan90]

Well I don't know about everybody else, but I for one am proud of Australia because it's an awesome country, not because my parents live here.

Yeah, but my point is that you have nothing to do with it being awesome so why be proud?

I grew here, you flew here.

Exactly what I mean by patriotism being exclusive (though I assume you are having a laugh). Patriotism in most countries caters only to the majority ethnic group; immigrants who CHOSE to come to the country and people born there in an ethnic minority aren't readily accepted. Though this all comes from my experience of being a dual citizen and part of an ethnic minority in western Sydney.

Na, anti-nationalism/individualism artificially inflates the value of the individual and leads to social alienation/community breakdown. I think people should always be encouraged to place values in things external to themselves. I understand the dehumanizing herd mentality is a concern, but so is narcissism

Well that is a dilly of a pickle.

 

[JaredR]

Apu on The Simpsons is a true American patriot!

 

[bigboyjames]

Apu on The Simpsons is a true American patriot!

i think apu is a secret jew.

 

[impervious182]

cronulla

Cronulla is what happens when part of society don't feel patriotism.

 

[Josip Broz Tito]

Cronulla is what happens when part of society don't feel patriotism.

wrong

 

[impervious182]

wrong

No.

The whole immigration debate etc. and testing whether immigrants have Australian values and speak English is about nationlism and patriotism. Large proportions of certain ethnic groups do not integrate into society because essentially, they have no respect for it and still feel strong patriotism for where they come from.


The Cronulla Riots would not have occurred had both groups felt a sense of unity through patriotism and love for Australia as a multicultural nation. What segregated people, was that one group, at large, still don't call Australia home and unify based on ethnicity.


This is really unclear, I know. My point is, that groups who wish to integrate into society because of a patriotism and pride in the country they are in, eventually do. Controversy and tensions are sparked by a certain group not feeling the same way...

 

[spiny norman]

The whole immigration debate etc. and testing whether immigrants have Australian values and speak English is about nationlism and patriotism. Large proportions of certain ethnic groups do not integrate into society because essentially, they have no respect for it and still feel strong patriotism for where they come from.


The Cronulla Riots would not have occurred had both groups felt a sense of unity through patriotism and love for Australia as a multicultural nation. What segregated people, was that one group, at large, still don't call Australia home and unify based on ethnicity.

I was worried in this thread that I actually thought you were quite right on everything, until you came along with this bullshit.

I was going to pick this apart, but I really can't be fucked. The inherent stupidity speaks for itself.

 

[impervious182]

I was worried in this thread that I actually thought you were quite right on everything, until you came along with this bullshit.

I was going to pick this apart, but I really can't be fucked. The inherent stupidity speaks for itself.

True. I could have worded that better, but I stand by the principle that it was a lack of nationalism, or rather the lack of a nationalism which extended to a multicultural, unified national identity that led to the Cronulla Riots.

The problem was, that both groups had different ideas about national identity. One group didn't accept that those of Lebanese descent were Australian, it didn't fit into their idea of the Australian national identity. Another group, I feel, didn't feel like they were Australian at all and formed isolated communities, in which anti-(other Australian) sentiments fostered and many felt and feel that there true home is not Australia. As a result they have little respect for Australia or Australian law... hence the many gangs which plague Sydney and other cities and make it unsafe for all Australians and who give decent Australians of Lebanese descent a bad name.

Look, racism played a huge role. This racism though, can be put under the heading of a lack of an all encompassing national identity, and hence under nationalism. The problem was that nationalism was felt, a sense of brotherhood and unity, but this did not transcend ethnicity. Both groups displayed racism, and an anger which had built up because of an inability of policies to integrate them and a lack of respect on both sides.

An attack sparked the riots, and triggered the rage which had existed in so many Australians to be unleashed. And to be honest, whatever the causes of these attacks. All those who took part in the events should be ashamed... dissillusion should be turned into affirmative action, not violence; otherwise anger builds and problems are cultivated.

The job now is to somehow overcome the lack of respect and prefixed ideas of Australian national identity. In doing so, the way in which groups segregate themselves from the wider society can be overcome... promoting an all-encomposing national identity, and patriotism would be one way of doing this. Promoting the idea that whether someone is of Lebanese, Chinese, Japanese, American, English, Aboriginal descent, that they are all Australians. (Sounds corny, but I think it works.)

 

[ASNSWR127]

"I am a patriot - not a nationalist"

patriotism is good

nationalism is bad