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Islam (1 Viewer)

soha

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nekkid said:
she's a modern muslim.
no such thing
islam is based on the way of the prophet(pbuh) and the message and obeying Allah
how can you be a lesbian..(disobeying Allah)
and a muslim..and claim to be advanding and modern
it just makes me wonder..wtf?
 

Sweets

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I think the person you are thinking of is Irshad Manji she is actually Canadian.

I don't think very much of her not because she is gay but because she is so egotistical everything she does and writes is totally self-serving. It has not theological backing and she has no real formal education in the area.

I don't think you should be so close-minded Soha on your opinion of the correct version of Islam. People go through many struggles and you don't know why they are in the particular situation and you certainly don't have insight into their psyche.
 

Sweets

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nekkid said:
any so called "muslim" nation is fake. amina wuddud, or any other feminist in any middle eastern country is not fighting against islam, but rather against the culture which is ingrained in society and/or governement.
In this world were versions of Islam are not true Islam when people are either too progressive or fundamentalists. What exactly is Islam? Looking back may be something important but I feel like Muslims are living in the past rather then learning from it. The Ottoman empire is over. It will never exist again.

I don't think Amina Wuddud or any other Muslim feminists such as Fatima Mernissi or Leila Ahmed are fighting against Islam I think instead they are fighting for something more important they are fighting for Islam.
 

soha

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Sweets said:
I don't think you should be so close-minded Soha on your opinion of the correct version of Islam. People go through many struggles and you don't know why they are in the particular situation and you certainly don't have insight into their psyche.
yes i understand that
but its not the fact that shes a lesbian(and the person im talking about is not canadian shes english from u.k)..dont know her name tho..
its also other views she upholds
and there is only one correct version of islam
Allah said there will be 71 sects of judiasm
72 of christianity and 73 of islam
and only one of the 73 groups will enter paradise
Allah uh alam what is it..but thats what we have to do..find the correct path
and im not judging her faith etc
but it makes me laugh that shes a lesbian and that shes a feminist and that shes a muslim
im allowed to find it funny..and wonder..wtf?
 

zahid

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soha said:
theres a muslim feminist in u.k
shes a lesbian
haha
made me laugh
like wtf?
hahahahhaahha almost as funny as the Islamic gay liberation movement in canada.
 

tempco

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Sweets said:
In this world were versions of Islam are not true Islam when people are either too progressive or fundamentalists. What exactly is Islam? Looking back may be something important but I feel like Muslims are living in the past rather then learning from it. The Ottoman empire is over. It will never exist again.

I don't think Amina Wuddud or any other Muslim feminists such as Fatima Mernissi or Leila Ahmed are fighting against Islam I think instead they are fighting for something more important they are fighting for Islam.
the thing is, everyone has their own intepretation of islam. some believe that true islam can only be established in an islamic state: a state ruled a single khalif (leader), based on the shariah (set of laws/rules based on the quran, which is from god). others (prominent in the uk) are taking an active step towards entering parliament, and practicing islam in the democratic world. personally, i lean towards the latter.

note that my opinion on islam not being practiced "properly" only refers to governments. there is no government that i, personally, can vouch for as being even remotely muslim. check out the site http://www.mpacuk.org/. thats moving in the right direction.
 

fashionista

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All I know is that the only 'ticket' you need to enter Paradise is to be a Muslim and believe that Allah is One and Mohammed is His Prophet. We are human and prone to making mistakes and succumbing to temptation, so if you have been a Muslim and sinned, as far as I know, you will no doubt be punished for you sins either in this world or the Hereafter, but if you truly believed the aformentioned phrase then once Allah has decided you have paid for your sins you will be allowed to enter. The only people not allowed to enter paradise I believe are those who have committed suicide. That's as far as I know anyway. correct me if i'm wrong
 

SabtheLab

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the argument that we should be looking forward as opposed to back is very interesting i think. Yes we should be looking forward- looking to implement the perfect ideals of Islam and thus make the world a happier place. When soha says lookign back, i think what shes trying to say is that we need a model for that goal- and that model was in the era of the first 3 generations -the sahabi, tabi-en and tabi-tabieen. The Islam as implemented back in those times is truly ideal and DOES NOT conflict with modernity and progression. In fact, i really think this is an idea which has been briushed upon slightly but not really discussed. People say Islam is against modernity and progression. What id like to know is what exactly their definition of modernity and progression is???
 

SabtheLab

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btw, soha, i think i met sima on friday and her husband...soz i forgot yasmeena has other bros and sis
 

SabtheLab

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sweets, these patriarchal interpretations dont exist. the simple fact of the matter is- in these so-called"muslim" countries, women arent encouraged to learn about their religion and so their only source of religious knowledge comes from their chauvinistic, idiotic husbands. Its got nothing to dowith interpretation. The simple fact of the matter is, women are prevented from learning about these rights by studying religion coz they unfortuanately live in a culture dating back to pre-Islamic times which doesnt place much regard on womens rights. And yes, Islam DID give women rights before any civilsation in history and these rights WERE implemented in the first 3 generations. Unfortuanately, due to times and events (like the Crusades, blame the Vatican for that) the model Islamic society disintegrated along with the true islamic character. For me, i think the catalyst for his disintegration was the the Cordovan martyrs and the Crusades. So if you dont mind, id like to blame the early Christian world for our current problems.
 

Sweets

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Patriarchal intrpretations of Islam do exist I suggest you read Fatima Mernissi's beyond the veil and Women and Gender in Islam by Leila Ahmed.

You can't just dismiss those patriarchal interpretations of Islam as being that of idiotic husbands etc because that is an interpretation and from their view it is the RIGHT one.

Thats another thing with Muslims, not only do they like to look back to the past alot they like to blame the early Christians or these days American for all their problems. Perhaps this view might have some basis but I don't think it helps anyone.
 

fashionista

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I don't think anyone but the individuals in question are to blame, these women who are viewed as oppressed are only so due to a lack of education amongst their respective communities, this lack of education can not be blamed on Islamic teaching which encourages and respects education, science, mathematics,art etc etc highly. a prime example is India or pakistan, as you move from the villages to the urban regions you will find a marked difference in the levels of liberation of Islamic women. The urbanised women are more often than not, educated, intellectual and vocal individuals who are not dependant on their fathers or brothers to make decisions for them, whereas in villages and isolated pockets of populations the women are much less likely to have any vocal rights or opinionative avenues. the religion, once again encourages women's education

"If you educate a man, you educate one person, if you educate a woman, you educate a whole family"
 

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But you see thats just it!! in saying there are different interpretations, your implying that the rulings on womens rights are vague and so up for differeing interpretations!!! theyre not!

it has absolutely nothing to do with interpretation and i cant stress this enough. the fact is people are ignorant. youd assume that living in a "muslim country" theyd know any better. but they dont. they are misinformed. theyre treatment of women stems from culture , which often claims that it comes from Quranic teachings. but noone bothers to actually check whether these cultural beliefs actually do agree with the Quran. and thats the problem. misinformation not misinterpretation. Backing up exactly what tangerine speedo just said.

About looking to the past. By looking to the past, i mean interms of moral and ethical systems, the way people treated each other and the way society held up. Society, in terms of ethics etc. was at it's peak during Muhammads time. Yes weve progressed in terms of technology and science, but our societal struicture is still the same. In looking to the past, we want to recreate the same type of society in terms of it's function-not as in riding on camels and living in caves. Muslim Spain and Jerusalem, and the time of the Calipha, were, and many historians agree on this point, were ideal societies , some may say, near perfect. Tolerance, satisfaction, zero poverty, caring for one another, no promiscuity, no civil unrest. Just absolute peace and happiness. The Quran and its teachings are applicable to the rest of time. Society was at it's peak at it's time of revelation and if implemented on Earth today, Utopia would prevail.
 

Sweets

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I think you have a skewed version of what the world was like under Muslim rule. I mean it was a great historical period but to say it was perfect is just totally incorrect.

I think you don't realise that religion is a social/cultural phenomena. You can't seperate it from its culture because that will always affect the way people practice it. I mean religion shouldn't be for theory it should be for practice. It should allow the individual to live their life to the best of their ability not inhibit them. And that doesn't seem to be happening in muslim or as you call them 'muslim' countries.

To me the only person who has gotten Islam in the modern world right is Tariq Ramadan. Everyone else is just trying to further their own political ideals and agenda.

'Just absolute peace and happiness'- I think that is way to much of a generalised utopian vision of the world. One persons happiness is another persons hell. I think the main thing we have to realise is that everyone is a product of their context so therefore the notion of enlightment will manifest itself in different ways. Like the way for one person the hijab may be liberating and in another context totally oppressive. So in this sense their cannot be absolute peace and happiness.
 

WonkaHead22

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tangerinespeedo said:
I don't think anyone but the individuals in question are to blame, these women who are viewed as oppressed are only so due to a lack of education amongst their respective communities, this lack of education can not be blamed on Islamic teaching which encourages and respects education, science, mathematics,art etc etc highly. a prime example is India or pakistan, as you move from the villages to the urban regions you will find a marked difference in the levels of liberation of Islamic women. "
that would be near the border of pakistan , thsoe villages u speak of
 

fashionista

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SabtheLab said:
But you see thats just it!! in saying there are different interpretations, your implying that the rulings on womens rights are vague and so up for differeing interpretations!!! theyre not!

it has absolutely nothing to do with interpretation and i cant stress this enough. the fact is people are ignorant. youd assume that living in a "muslim country" theyd know any better. but they dont. they are misinformed. theyre treatment of women stems from culture , which often claims that it comes from Quranic teachings. but noone bothers to actually check whether these cultural beliefs actually do agree with the Quran. and thats the problem. misinformation not misinterpretation. Backing up exactly what tangerine speedo just said.

About looking to the past. By looking to the past, i mean interms of moral and ethical systems, the way people treated each other and the way society held up. Society, in terms of ethics etc. was at it's peak during Muhammads time. Yes weve progressed in terms of technology and science, but our societal struicture is still the same. In looking to the past, we want to recreate the same type of society in terms of it's function-not as in riding on camels and living in caves. Muslim Spain and Jerusalem, and the time of the Calipha, were, and many historians agree on this point, were ideal societies , some may say, near perfect. Tolerance, satisfaction, zero poverty, caring for one another, no promiscuity, no civil unrest. Just absolute peace and happiness. The Quran and its teachings are applicable to the rest of time. Society was at it's peak at it's time of revelation and if implemented on Earth today, Utopia would prevail.
is that not what i said??? the cultures in rural india are completely different to those of urban india...im saying it depends on the level of education of the community also, and as such the levels of education, both about Islamic and worldly values in rural areas are far less than in an urban society..i mentioned nothing about interpretation.
 

fashionista

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Sweets said:
To me the only person who has gotten Islam in the modern world right is Tariq Ramadan. Everyone else is just trying to further their own political ideals and agenda.
ok, as much as i don't know you, i resent that. how do you know who's correctly interpreted the religion or not? saying that is insulting every muslim on this board without any prior knowledge as to how, and to what extent (be it liberalism or extremism) we practise our religion. as far as i have come in this world i have been told by many how balanced and concurrently religious i am. To say something like that without having read the Qu'ran and therefore knowing what is expected of us is un-called for. ( if you have read the Qu'ran feel free to correct me)
 

Sweets

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tangerinespeedo said:
ok, as much as i don't know you, i resent that. how do you know who's correctly interpreted the religion or not? saying that is insulting every muslim on this board without any prior knowledge as to how, and to what extent (be it liberalism or extremism) we practise our religion. as far as i have come in this world i have been told by many how balanced and concurrently religious i am. To say something like that without having read the Qu'ran and therefore knowing what is expected of us is un-called for. ( if you have read the Qu'ran feel free to correct me)

Umm maybe you shouldn't be so presumptuous my friend. I have read the Qu'ran in both english and arabic and I did say that to me Tariq Ramadan represents a good wordview I did not attempt to impose that on you. Btw, I was raised in a muslim family so maybe you shouldn't presume and as a result of this I have been exposed to many strands of Islam- conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, extremist you name it.
 

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