Israel and Palestine (3 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

"So now palestine is a country?" By this do u mean that Palestine is not a country? If this is the case then you have flawed yourself. COnsidering Palestine is not a country, the palestinian people wish for land that is not theirs to begin with.

You said:

And a country which is in possession of land can do what it wants to it, just like how the Palestinians destroyed houses and synagogues when they took control of Gush Katif.

I directly quoted what I was responding to.

"but their actions are not leading to the destitution of millions of people so it's of little concern to me." So since the palestinians and other terrorists kill only small numbers at random times and not in a military operation that doesn't concern you...WOWWW thats diplomatic.

I didn't say it doesn't concern me, just that it's of little concern (comparitively).

This is a silly question and you know it: We can distinguish who has land and who doesn't, and if you can't I can't really help you.

What, so your argument is that it's just common-sense? I'd argue that it's palestinian land because that's the international opinion on the matter for a variety of reasons. You're probably going to disagree with that, so I want to know why... it's not a silly question, there's 1000's of different ways to qualify who has what land.


And you know Israel does not persecute Palestinians because they are palestinian, once again if you think they do I can't help you because...well obviously I'm not gonna change your mind on that am I.

And you know Israel does not persecute Palestinians because they are palestinian, once again if you think they do I can't help you because...well obviously I'm not gonna change your mind on that am I.

I don't think it's necessarily due to racism, though I i imagine it's involved at some level. It has more to do with acquiring their resources. The occupation of palestine is the most convenient way for Israel to expand.

Once again, a country that owns land has a right to do with it what it wants

Including treating innocent segments of the population systematically as second class citizens? Wow.

actually no, your right they can't, next time the government of Australia tries to improve your standard of living with a new damn or plantation, you should be at the forefront stopping them because it is destructive to the people living there...

The way such sacrafices (i.e. having to move people to build a new dam) are qualified in a country like Australia is that it's for the greater good of the entire population (including the people that must be moved), the people are given compensation for their loss etc. If Israel was willing to share the wealth of settlements etc with palestinians, pay reparations to those who have been disenfranchised, I doubt i'd have too much to complain about with such settlements...

don't forget the animals either, we wouldn't wanna persecute them now would we?

I accept humans as beings with greater rights than other animals.... but what is the point of this red herring anyway? Are you trying to equate palestinians with animals?

-------------------------------------------------

Regardless, I mentioned that I believe a two party state would have once been possible. Do I think it's still possible? Perhaps, but it would require a great deal of comprimise from both sides even though Israel should have a lot less grounds for bargaining.

I actually think a unified, secular state is ultimately the best solution for both parties, if they can learn to cooperate. But I think a huge leap in that direction would first be the establishment of a two party state that would obviously begin the bindings of cooperation.

 

[HotShot]

I actually think a unified, secular state is ultimately the best solution for both parties, if they can learn to cooperate. But I think a huge leap in that direction would first be the establishment of a two party state that would obviously begin the bindings of cooperation.

Just on that last point regarding the Palestinian future:
I think before anything will happen - as in towards a solution, the ideology of both countries and its citizens must change. I think on sbs news - it was put nicely, there was palestinian who is married to a jewish women and both their parents, relatives etc failed to recognise or support thier union. And as such the couple are trying to escape Israel and Palestine and move to europe.

I mean thats a perfect eg, of the ideology - Israelis must hate Palestinians and vice versa. And this needs to change otherwise there wont be any support for a solution.

 

[extraordinary07]

hey, this is fun

i'm catholic, what is your religion?

im not anti-semetic, but terrorism is bad, am i right or what.



trivia time: what is this?

? any ideas, it is coming soon!

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Me is atheist. Former Christian.

 

[JaredR]

Extraordiinary are you being intentionally condescending or not? If not how do you expect to receive a UAI of over 90 when you can't even communicate a simple message in english. :s

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Nebuchanezzar is past the HSC, and didn't receive a UAI of over 90. In fact, he acheived a UAI of less than 80, but due to hard work, he eventually got into the course of his original desire...unlike all his schoolyard chums who are either stuck in worthless UWS courses, or drifting aimlessly.

Seriously though, 'sif any of that matters, friendly Jew.

 

[nathan71088]

"Are you trying to equate palestinians with animals?" Yep exactly wat I was saying, thumbs up...

 

[onebytwo]

"Are you trying to equate palestinians with animals?" Yep exactly wat I was saying, thumbs up...

thats not nice

 

[undefined mind]

i have always failed to see how Israel has claim to palestine.

The zionists say that jews were the first occupants of the region, but this is simply not true Israel has been able to claim native title with no clear proof of first occupancy, Most historians (and indeed, those who wrote the Bible), agree that the Canaanites were the first peoples of Palestine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

 

[umop 3pisdn]

Somehow I'm pretty sure Native Title as defined in Australia doesn't even make sense or apply anywhere else in the world.

 

[undefined mind]

Somehow I'm pretty sure Native Title as defined in Australia doesn't even make sense or apply anywhere else in the world.

ok sure, whatever you want, i change the phrase "native title" to the word "palestine".

my point is still vaild.

 

[MaNiElla]

"Are you trying to equate palestinians with animals?" Yep exactly wat I was saying, thumbs up...

EXCUSE ME ?? :mad1:

 

[onebytwo]

"Are you trying to equate palestinians with animals?" Yep exactly wat I was saying, thumbs up...

well, it is convention afterall.....
"Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals." (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)

 

[PoliticalExile]

1) Israel - It is recognised as the soverign state by the United Nations and the Western World.

You are factually inaccurate.

Actually the West didn't recognize Israel until the East, USSR, did.

Let us not forget how the state of Israel was created, and which government created it, and the nature of that government.

The government of the USSR which had an active Death Camp system wanted to create Israel.

Read the actual UN transcripts.

14 May 1947
SEVENTY-SEVENTH PLENARY MEETING
General Assembly
UNITED NATIONS

Mr. GROMYKO (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian)

"The fact that no western European State has been able to ensure the defence of the elementary rights of the Jewish people, and to safeguard it against the violence of the fascist executioners, explains the aspirations of the Jews to establish their own State. "

http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_ungromyko.htm

See it was not "The West" which wanted to cause the Apartheid in Palestine.

Later in november 1947, actual UN transcript.

November 26, 1947
UN Debate on Palestine Partition
General Assembly
UNITED NATIONS

Mr. GROMYKO (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian):

"The Government of the USSR through its delegation at the Assembly, pointed to the second solution, which was to partition Palestine into two free, independent and democratic States- an Arab and a Jewish one."

"The solution of the Palestine problem based on a partition of Palestine into two separate states will be of profound historical significance, because this decision will meet the legitimate demands of the Jewish people,"

Source: http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_ungromyko.htm

Israel was founded by the highly zionist state of USSR which killed over 62 million people in the Gulags.

USSR killed 61,911,000 Victims in the Gulag concentration death camps: Utopianism Empowered 1917 to 1987

* Figure 1.1. Range in Soviet Democide Estimates
* Table 1.1. Overview of Soviet Democide (Most Probable Estimates)
* Figure 1.4. Soviet Democide and Annual Rate by Period
* Table 1.2. Comparisons of Soviet Democide
* Figure 1.6. Annual Risk of a Soviet Citizen being Murdered by His Own Government in Comparison to Some Other Risks
* Appendix 1.1
o Table 1.A. 61,911,000 Victims: Totals, Estimates, and Years
* Appendix 1.2
o Table 1.B. Soviet Transit, Camp, and Deportation Death Rates
o Table 1.C. Democide Totals under Different Camp/Transit and Deportation Death Rates

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE4.HTM

4) Terrorist: One who utilizes the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political objectives, while disguised as a civilian non-combatant. If this fits the description of certain Palestinians whom claim Jihad on Israel then yes I do view them as terrorists. But not all Palestinians are terrorists.

While Israel does terrorize children, not all Israelis are terrorists.

But not all Israelis are terrorists.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

I see. So instead of having a country being thrust into the region, in a manner that was by most accounts a little unfair, by the US, we have the same situation done by the USSR. I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is: a) what's the point? b) who cares?

 

[JaredR]

Put the situation in it's most simplest of forms.

- Over the centuries land has been claimed through conquer.
- The Palestinians were conquered by what was to become the State of Israel.
- Yes there was an imbalace of power. Which war doesn't have one?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Ok, fine... let's say the Palestinians were conquered by the State of Israel and that's the end of it. It shows your lack of knowledge in the subject you're dealing with but nethertheless, why then should we still accept Israel treating those whom they have conquered as second class of citizens?

 

[nathan71088]

thats not nice

I would like to retract that comment and apologise for it being misunderstood. I was trying to be sarcastic but you obviously misunderstood so I apologise. I do not believe any religious denomination could be referred to as an animal because such a description is derogitory and that was not my aim. I attempted to show that my words had been manipulated to show something derogitory when I hadn't meant it. Apologies again.


As far as Bava Metzia goes: Any person who knows what the Talmud is, will explain to you that it can only be read in context and with commentary, please do not misunderstand this quote: "Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals." (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)"

 

[bored6]

I would like to retract that comment and apologise for it being misunderstood. I was trying to be sarcastic but you obviously misunderstood so I apologise. I do not believe any religious denomination could be referred to as an animal because such a description is derogitory and that was not my aim. I attempted to show that my words had been manipulated to show something derogitory when I hadn't meant it. Apologies again.


As far as Bava Metzia goes: Any person who knows what the Talmud is, will explain to you that it can only be read in context and with commentary, please do not misunderstand this quote: "Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals." (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)"

Theres no need to apologise. Everyone worth their salt on this forum already thinks your an idiot.

 

[onebytwo]

I would like to retract that comment and apologise for it being misunderstood. I was trying to be sarcastic but you obviously misunderstood so I apologise. I do not believe any religious denomination could be referred to as an animal because such a description is derogitory and that was not my aim. I attempted to show that my words had been manipulated to show something derogitory when I hadn't meant it. Apologies again.


As far as Bava Metzia goes: Any person who knows what the Talmud is, will explain to you that it can only be read in context and with commentary, please do not misunderstand this quote: "Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals." (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)"

sorry, sarcasm isnt always as obvious to me