It's a small world, as far as universities go anyway (1 Viewer)

Xayma

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To bring a few old issues up on things like HECS, and the issue of reliance on international students, it seems like the only ones with a thriving uni system are the USA where full fees are paid to private universities.

BBC said:
Is all rosy in higher education?
By Mike Baker
BBC News education correspondent

Is everything in the university garden looking rosy?

In England, the political battle over top-up fees is over - the opposition parties' threat to abolish fees melted away with the election result - and institutions are earning large amounts of cash from overseas students.

So why are universities still so worried about the future?

At an Anglo-German gathering in Berlin

last week - the 55th annual Konigswinter Conference - leading educators joined forces to express their concern that European universities are falling behind their American counterparts.

China crisis?

And they had a new worry: is China about to turn its back on Europe - where it currently sends large numbers of graduate students - to develop its own international higher education sector?

The gathering, which included several leading British vice-chancellors and academics, was far from complacent about the future.

Even the prospect of being able to charge undergraduates "top-up" fees of £3,000 a year from 2006 did not make much of a dent in their perception that the big universities in the US are leaving them behind.

They felt no British university could compete with the vast fund-raising foundations at Harvard, Yale and Stanford.

This funding gap was creating a "brain drain" with, as one vice-chancellor put it, a "prevailing wind blowing academics westwards".

With state funding likely to remain tight, and with schools likely to have a stronger hold on any additional government investment, the overwhelming view was that European universities would have to look to other sources of income.

If anything, German university leaders were even gloomier than the British.

They have been talking for some time about the necessity of charging fees to domestic undergraduates, but as yet have not taken any tough decisions.

The principle of free higher education is still firmly rooted in the German social democratic model. But for how much longer?

Meanwhile, German universities, like their British counterparts, are hoping to boost their depleted coffers by recruiting more overseas students.

There are an estimated two million students who study outside the country of their origin. Europe remains a net importer of students but competition from the US and Australia is intense.

There have been murmurs that top universities, like Oxford, could go private

And, according to one vice-chancellor, British universities are competing with one arm behind their back.

He runs one of the country's most prestigious universities yet believes that he currently "loses" about £2,500 per domestic student.

In other words, the combined income from the government and student fees falls far short of the costs of educating each student.

One way he can make up for this loss is by charging higher fees to overseas students.

Quite apart from the question of fairness of using overseas students to subsidise domestic students, this makes it harder for his university to compete internationally.

To put it bluntly, his argument was that if domestic students were not a loss-making activity, he could charge lower, and more competitive, fees to overseas students.

So how do universities get out of this difficulty? There have been murmurs that top universities, like Oxford, could go private.

'Fantastical'

By giving up state funding, the argument goes, they would gain the freedom to charge market-rate fees and so earn the income to compete with the wealthy American universities.

One attendee at the conference, a former minister of higher education, described such proposals as "fantastical". He argued the real question was not whether universities should be privatised, but how they could raise more private funding.

But on this issue there was yet more doom and gloom, with experts warning that some big scientific companies were already shifting their research contracts to India and China.

Indeed they argued that China's strategy has been to send lots of graduate students to the UK, and elsewhere, to gain PhDs and then, when they return home, to compete with European and American universities for global research contracts.

China's aim is to have its own big players in the global higher education market.

Like many international conferences, the Konigswinter Conference failed to reach many hard conclusions about how European universities could continue to compete in a global market.

But it did at least set out, in all its starkness, some of the problems that lie ahead.

The tough decision to charge domestic students fees may have been taken in England, whereas it is still being delayed elsewhere in Europe.

It is also unresolved in Wales, where this week the Assembly voted narrowly to oppose the introduction of fees.

But the consensus view among these higher education leaders seemed to be that top-up fees would not be enough to solve the problems of funding and international competitiveness.

The pressure to lift the cap on the £3,000 variable fee limit has already begun.
Edit: This is mainly to foster a discussion on how the developed world views the education systems of their respective countries.
 
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Generator

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Those US institutions may be quite powerful and possess extensive capital networks, but that's to be expected given the size and varied nature of the US Higher Education 'market' (I don't agree with the idea of it being a market, but it's the best term in this case) and the fact that they are the top private institutions.

In Australia (and those other countries with a more distinct social-democratic structure), there may be room for privatisation, but not at the expense of a well resourced and academically competitive public sector.
 
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Xayma

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But a number of European universities have that ability (Cambridge and Oxford in the UK), at the stage where the universities are running at a loss, and with the huge earning power of the graduates afterwards shouldn't they have the responsibility to pay back the cost.
 

Generator

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That would depend on your position (even though most institutions now seem to act as though they are a corporation selling a product/service). I don't see the outlay as a cost as such, but at the same time I believe that the students should be liable for a reasonable portion of the amount needed to fund their education/learning experience.
 

withoutaface

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They should go private, but it should be on a deferred cost scheme, so as to give a fair opportunity to be educated for anyone who has the ability.
 

Xayma

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withoutaface said:
They should go private, but it should be on a deferred cost scheme, so as to give a fair opportunity to be educated for anyone who has the ability.
On that note it was interesting to see the rate students in the USA get charged in interest:

2.70% PA

Although it is set to rise to 4.7% from July 1st.


"Those receiving bachelor's degrees in the 1999-2000 school year took out an average of $19,300 -- $7,200 more than those who graduated in 1992-1993. Roughly 65 percent of those who graduated in 1999-2000 took out student loans, compared with 49 percent of those graduating in 1992-1993."

Isn't really that much difference between here and the USA (only a few thousand) although granted they cant take out loans for the full amount (dependent upon parental income).

Although it is harder to get government funding levels since universities are mainly a state controlled fair there (as opposed to here where the money comes from the federal government)
 
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Rorix

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Xayma said:
But a number of European universities have that ability (Cambridge and Oxford in the UK), at the stage where the universities are running at a loss, and with the huge earning power of the graduates afterwards shouldn't they have the responsibility to pay back the cost.


What we really need, then, is a resale market for Nobel Prizes:)
 
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Plan for our first mega-uni

Three West Aus universities could join forces to form the nation's first "mega-uni" with more than 70,000 students in a higher education shake up that could lead to similar mergers.

The Australian.
 

Xayma

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shady_03 said:
This thread bores me...
I'm sorry, I couldn't find any A Current Affair, Today Tonight or Telegraph stories. Obviously you didn't have to post in here.

Rorix, we don't need a resale market, they already get enough money with the nobel prize as it is :p
 

Enlightened_One

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Don't forget that in the US there exists a very real poverty trap that is not as abundant here. Almost everyone in a US university had a parent with a degree or was wealthy or attended a 'good' school. There system works because it is far more inequal than ours. I find it interesting that in the 'Five Faces of Oppression' this is mentioned, and by an American.
 

mun_

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Xayma said:
I'm sorry, I couldn't find any A Current Affair, Today Tonight or Telegraph stories. Obviously you didn't have to post in here.
hahahahaha
 

paper cup

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Xayma said:
To bring a few old issues up on things like HECS, and the issue of reliance on international students, it seems like the only ones with a thriving uni system are the USA where full fees are paid to private universities.



Edit: This is mainly to foster a discussion on how the developed world views the education systems of their respective countries.
The Chinese system is very good for primary and high school education
However the university system is definitely lacking - the best unis send their people overseas (Qing Hua = science, Ren Min = politics and economics, Peking or Beijing = artsy things) because the conditions don't allow for the effectiveness of certain research programs.
Heaps of Chinese int students in Australia and Canada, mostly because it's cheaper than the US or Europe
 

leetom

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cherryblossom said:
The Chinese system is very good for primary and high school education
However the university system is definitely lacking - the best unis send their people overseas (Qing Hua = science, Ren Min = politics and economics, Peking or Beijing = artsy things) because the conditions don't allow for the effectiveness of certain research programs.
Heaps of Chinese int students in Australia and Canada, mostly because it's cheaper than the US or Europe
I am interested in becoming a CCP pawn.
 

LadyBec

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it seems that we're not the only ones struggling with university education these days.
It seems that the only people it IS working for is the Americans... But then everyone in America has to fork out for their degree, which could be why their uni's dont have any money issues...
 

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