Media Article: School Leaving Age 18 (2 Viewers)

[me121]

I just read in the Sun Herald today, page 13, that "The Government released a discussion paper with options including raising the age students stay at school or in compulsory training to 16, 17 or 18".

Ha.. that's so funny because if they make the leaving age 18, then they will have to invent a year 13 for all the people in year 12 who only turn 18 the next year. Surly they cannot make it 18... because what would happen with all the these kind of students..?

 

[boris]

No.
Read the bit about compulsory training. You'll still be able to leave school before 18, but you'll have to undertake some sort of training at TAFE or a traineeship (if you're not going to uni)

I guess it's their way of plugging up the skills shortage, and a way of stopping a heap of kids dropping out and becoming useless welfare hags.

 

[Stott Despoja]

I just read in the Sun Herald today, page 13, that "The Government released a discussion paper with options including raising the age students stay at school or in compulsory training to 16, 17 or 18".

Ha.. that's so funny because if they make the leaving age 18, then they will have to invent a year 13 for all the people in year 12 who only turn 18 the next year. Surly they cannot make it 18... because what would happen with all the these kind of students..?

They're called discussion papers for a reason. Anyway, a policy that stipulated a leaving age of 18 would (or should) include provisions for those who complete their secondary education before the age of 18.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

I'm going to go ahead and say this is pretty much fascism

and also rly unfair for the x% of people in year 11 and 12 who want to learn but get stuck with the would-be dropouts

PROTIP: you don't need the hsc to be a blue collar worker

 

[A High Way Man]

Ha.. that's so funny because if they make the leaving age 18, then they will have to invent a year 13 for all the people in year 12 who only turn 18 the next year. Surly they cannot make it 18... because what would happen with all the these kind of students..?

really inane reasoning. how did you become a moderator?

 

[boris]

really inane reasoning. how did you become a moderator?

He doesn't call people a stupid fuck as regularly as everybody else.

 

[me121]

really inane reasoning. how did you become a moderator?

what has that got to do with this discussion?

But with regards to the discussion, I think that they should have some kind of job or training such as apprenticeship (which is a job) or tafe. Yr 11 and 12 is only for some people, not everyone.

But then again, tafe costs money, right? So you cannot force someone to attend tafe, they may not be able to afford it. Hence, their only option would be to do yr 11 and 12, but that is not for everyone.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Keeping children in school who don't want to be there when they could very well be at TAFE or in the workforce will be detrimental to both their learning and the learning of others. If they don't want to do it, forcing them to do their HSC is not going to miraculously turn them into bright eyed eager students chomping at the bit to get into university. They'll graduate having bombed their final exams and wasted two years they could have spent doing a relevant TAFE course or working.

The only way I can see this working at all is if the senior high school curriculum is changed. Even with VET subjects and so forth it still doesn't offer enough incentive to a reluctant student to stay till the end of secondary school. It's too academic, they'd need to introduce two different streams or something, one for the would-be dropouts and one for... forget it. It wouldn't work.

Shit idea. The end.

 

[boris]

Kids need to be less fucking useless though.
I know in my town there are half a dozen apprenticeships going around that can't be filled because kids rock up for two days and want to know why they're sweeping and fetching coffee and not panel beating or spray painting!

We've made it too easy for them to leave school and do nothing.

I don't advocate making them stay in school, but if they're going to drop out after year 10 they can fuck off and get a job and do some skills training and contribute something.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Kids need to be less fucking useless though.
I know in my town there are half a dozen apprenticeships going around that can't be filled because kids rock up for two days and want to know why they're sweeping and fetching coffee and not panel beating or spray painting!

We've made it too easy for them to leave school and do nothing.

I don't advocate making them stay in school, but if they're going to drop out after year 10 they can fuck off and get a job and do some skills training and contribute something.

well yeah, that's true.

I would be very in favour of compulsory job training skills for students who don't go on to senior high school. Not a fan of raising the leaving age, though. If you've got your School Certificate you're set to get out of there if you so choose, as far as i'm concerned.

 

[me121]

Keeping children in school who don't want to be there when they could very well be at TAFE or in the workforce will be detrimental to both their learning and the learning of others. If they don't want to do it, forcing them to do their HSC is not going to miraculously turn them into bright eyed eager students chomping at the bit to get into university. They'll graduate having bombed their final exams and wasted two years they could have spent doing a relevant TAFE course or working.

The only way I can see this working at all is if the senior high school curriculum is changed. Even with VET subjects and so forth it still doesn't offer enough incentive to a reluctant student to stay till the end of secondary school. It's too academic, they'd need to introduce two different streams or something, one for the would-be dropouts and one for... forget it. It wouldn't work.

Shit idea. The end.

agreed.

 

[bassistx]

No.
Read the bit about compulsory training. You'll still be able to leave school before 18, but you'll have to undertake some sort of training at TAFE or a traineeship (if you're not going to uni)

I guess it's their way of plugging up the skills shortage, and a way of stopping a heap of kids dropping out and becoming useless welfare hags.

what has that got to do with this discussion?

But with regards to the discussion, I think that they should have some kind of job or training such as apprenticeship (which is a job) or tafe. Yr 11 and 12 is only for some people, not everyone.

But then again, tafe costs money, right? So you cannot force someone to attend tafe, they may not be able to afford it. Hence, their only option would be to do yr 11 and 12, but that is not for everyone.

Seriously, how dumb are you? You just repeated what she said.

I think more people should drop out and get apprenticeships. And the stupid UAI shouldn't include year10 cohort because they dropped out for a reason - they're not as bright so they wouldn't have got a high UAI anyway. In most cases. But so many people waste their time doing y11 & 12 for nothing. Just go to TAFE already. Get a job. Move on. Jeez.

 

[bassistx]

f they don't want to do it, forcing them to do their HSC is not going to miraculously turn them into bright eyed eager students chomping at the bit to get into university.

Just a bit on this... In Italy they have high rates of unemployment because it is amazingly easy to get into university. Everybody has a degree and employers are going to look out for the best of the best - ie people with experience.
There is definitely a skills shortage, so I don't see the logic of making the HSC compulsory if it is required for university study (which is not the place you go to to become a plumber/electrician/etc).

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Probably something to do with tertiary education giving them a "professional" status.

Della Bosca is a moron.

sure is

HEY IF WE LOCK EVERYONE UP IN SCHOOL FOR 30 YEARS WE'LL ALL EARN MILLIONS

Seriously though some kids just can't stand the whole wearing-uniform, sitting-in-line, no-smoking you have to put up with at school, especially by the time they're 16-18 and get treated like adults (more or less) everywhere other than in school.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Just a bit on this... In Italy they have high rates of unemployment because it is amazingly easy to get into university. Everybody has a degree and employers are going to look out for the best of the best - ie people with experience.
There is definitely a skills shortage, so I don't see the logic of making the HSC compulsory if it is required for university study (which is not the place you go to to become a plumber/electrician/etc).

As an almost exception-free rule you can state

The greater the number of people with a particular qualification, the less that qualification becomes a guarantee the holder knows anything about its content, therefore the less it is worth

So obviously the HSC is worth less now than it was 40 years ago, and now we're seeing uni degrees go that way too.

Essentially you're just adding more boxes to check before you can start working. These days you need a TAFE certificate to become a cleaner.

Which raises the obvious question, how did people get by back in the days before there was a piece of paper for every little thing? If the piece of paper is a necessary condition to do something, no one would have been able to do anything!

Which is obviously false.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

There was a kid in my year who was being forced by his parents to do year 12. He hardly ever turned up to school, never did any work that I was aware of, quite probably got a UAI less than 30 and I never found out what became of him, though he certainly didn't go to university. He'd be a classic example of why making kids stay in school when they'd be better off doing something else is a retarded idea. Year 12 didn't do anything for him.

The thing that bugs me most about this is the argument that "staying in school will lead to better job prospects." Yeah. So? What if you don't want to take up the opportunity? What if you want to pursue a career that doesn't require a tertiary education (or even year 12)? Why should you be forced to stay in school? Sure, doing your HSC might lead you down a "better" career path (and even that, I think, is debatable) but it shouldn't be up to the government to decide whether you do it.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

I think it's trivial to argue that if everyone stays in school longer, staying in school longer ceases to lead to better job prospects

 

[bassistx]

As an almost exception-free rule you can state

The greater the number of people with a particular qualification, the less that qualification becomes a guarantee the holder knows anything about its content, therefore the less it is worth

So obviously the HSC is worth less now than it was 40 years ago, and now we're seeing uni degrees go that way too.

Essentially you're just adding more boxes to check before you can start working. These days you need a TAFE certificate to become a cleaner.

Which raises the obvious question, how did people get by back in the days before there was a piece of paper for every little thing? If the piece of paper is a necessary condition to do something, no one would have been able to do anything!

Which is obviously false.

True.
I honestly believe experience > expertise
And I mean "professional" expertise (degree). You can learn the theory but if you don't put it into practice, it's useless. Why not skip to the prac in the first place?
I'm seeing more and more people who graduate from TAFE get jobs because it's more hands-on and they have all the skills.
The latest thing would be childcare, I think. Not very long ago, maybe a decade ago, you didn't have to have a certificate to be a childcare worker.
Now you have to go to TAFE and get a diploma (ie waste your time getting a cert 1, 2, 3, 4, etc...) Bullcrap. Babies want a bottle, end of story.

 

[bassistx]

I think it's trivial to argue that if everyone stays in school longer, staying in school longer ceases to lead to better job prospects

That's what I meant lol.
The more people who stay, they more people who get an HSC etc might go onto uni and it screws up everybody else because there are too many people with professional qualifications when what we need is SERVICES not lawyers and doctors and accountants.

 

[me121]

Seriously, how dumb are you? You just repeated what she said.

I think more people should drop out and get apprenticeships. And the stupid UAI shouldn't include year10 cohort because they dropped out for a reason - they're not as bright so they wouldn't have got a high UAI anyway. In most cases. But so many people waste their time doing y11 & 12 for nothing. Just go to TAFE already. Get a job. Move on. Jeez.

I know boris said that, but I was reiterating that it was my view as well.

Really, the fact that year 10 are included in the UAI calculation, makes no difference, except if they were excluded everyone's UAI would be slightly lower, but then cut off's would go down.

I think they should be included in the calculation as then your UAI is a more correct ranking, as it incorporates a larger percentage of the population.