PM to Seize Uni Control from State Governments (2 Viewers)

ur_inner_child

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PM to Seize Uni Control from State Governments

I will put this in the Julie Bishop thread later. But for I feel it's quite appropriate to temporarily keep it seperate.

John Garnaut and David Crawshaw
May 10, 2007

THE Federal Government is poised to take its "education revolution" an extra step by using controversial constitutional powers to strip the states of their control over universities.

In her first post-budget interview, the Education Minister, Julie Bishop, told the Herald the states had tied the universities in red tape but contributed nothing financially.

"The states take out more in payroll tax than they invest in our universities," Ms Bishop said.

Recent financial scandals at Macquarie University had "raised questions" about whether state controls over universities were working, she said.

Ms Bishop said she would write to state education ministers asking them to refer regulatory powers over university financial administration, reporting and auditing.

If they refused, she raised the possibility of assuming control of universities through the Commonwealth's constitutional power over corporations.

"The full Federal Court has deemed them to be trading corporations," she said. "Now, I'm not suggesting that needs to be tested. I'm asking for a very sensible approach for the state governments to hand over their regulatory powers."

Education dominated the post-budget debate in Parliament yesterday, with both sides anxious to establish a political advantage in the run-up to the election later this year.

In the budget, the government unveiled major changes to university funding, including a $5 billion Higher Education Endowment Fund to pay for campus infrastructure and research facilities, and lifting caps on the numbers of full fee paying students. Its detailed package, which dramatically reverses the government's assault on the tertiary sector, is designed to undermine Labor's proclaimed "education revolution".

Labor accused the government of deceiving Australian voters, with the Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd claiming the figures did not support the government's assertion the education sector was the big budget winner.

Mr Rudd seized on budget papers showing education spending as a proportion of total government expenditure is expected to fall from 7.7 per cent in 2005-06 to 7.4 per cent in 2010-11.

"How can this be a budget about the future when the government's investment in education, as a proportion of total spending, falls over the next four years?" Mr Rudd said.

Mr Howard said the figures were percentages of aggregate government spending and "made no allowance for the fact that expenditure in other areas may have increased at an even faster rate than education."

Education spending was estimated to increase nine per cent in real terms from 2007-08 to 2010-11, or 3.4 per cent annually.

Mr Howard defended the government's decision to remove limits on the number of full fee-paying students in all university courses.

Students condemned the move, saying it would shut more people out of tertiary education. Democrats Senator Natasha Stott Despoja warned it would dramatically increase the debt burden on students.

But Mr Howard said the change would give universities greater control over their finances.

'"What we are doing is expanding the size of the university sector … and the capacity," he told Sky News.

The package has been well-received by most universities. "I seriously believe this budget is the best news for Australian universities for decades," the vice chancellor of Sydney University, Gavin Brown said.

Professor Brown warned the issue of removing red tape would need to be carefully negotiated with all stakeholders, including the states.

Ms Bishop said she wanted a negotiated outcome that would liberate academics from much of their administrative work and create world class centres.

Under her proposal, underlying state legislation would remain in place and the states would continue to own university real estate.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Federal control over universities: Excellent, so long as academics remain in charge of actually running them.

Increasing the DFEE places at uni: Oh dear. Once more, the rich will be more able to receive a university education over the poor, regardless of natural ability.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Federal control over universities: Excellent, so long as academics remain in charge of actually running them.
Agreed, the states should just give up and let the government have them.

Increasing the DFEE places at uni: Oh dear. Once more, the rich will be more able to receive a university education over the poor, regardless of natural ability.
I'm conflicted because I do think having DFEE places can fund further hecs, but if you don't set ANY cap on the number of DFEE places then I can see the thirst for profits going too far.
 

banco55

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cutting down on the number of people going to uni would be a good start. 15 % of the 18 year old cohort would be a good target.
 

jb_nc

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banco55 said:
cutting down on the number of people going to uni would be a good start. 15 % of the 18 year old cohort would be a good target.
16.3% achieved a UAI above 90 in 2006; so by your logic only people with a UAI of around, say, 91+ would plus could go to university...

51 000 students were eligible for a UAI last year and let's say 9 000 weren't; so 60 000 students finished year 12 in '06, 9 000 students under your "suggestion" would be targeted to go to uni in NSW.

Close down all but one university. How badly do you think the economy would be fucked up in NSW with only 9 000 grads coming out each year? Probably under 35 000 for the whole country...

EDIT: I sourced those figures from UAC's 2006 end-of-year report.
 
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banco55

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jb_nc said:
16.3% achieved a UAI above 90 in 2006; so by your logic only people with a UAI of around, say, 91+ would plus could go to university...

51 000 students were eligible for a UAI last year and let's say 9 000 weren't; so 60 000 students finished year 12 in '06, 9 000 students under your "suggestion" would be targeted to go to uni in NSW.

Close down all but one university. How badly do you think the economy would be fucked up in NSW with only 9 000 grads coming out each year? Probably under 35 000 for the whole country...

EDIT: I sourced those figures from UAC's 2006 end-of-year report.
Just because students weren't going into universites wouldn't mean they'd go straight into the workforce with no training. You'd have polytechnics etc. Plus it would depend on how the places were allocated. A hell of a lot of the people going to uni now either a)are doing a degree that in productivity terms will add very little (ie english lit, drama students) b) the proportion of students who don't complete their degree is quite high Not surprisingly there is a correlation between high uai's and high completion rates. So if you had 15% going you'd expect a substanstially greater proportion of them to actually obtain a degree.

"For example, for commencing undergraduate students (in total, new to higher education and not new to higher education) the first year attrition rate was over 20% for all years 1994 to 2002. "

http://www.dest.gov.au/sectors/high...igher_education_attrition_rates_1994_2002.htm
 

jb_nc

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...so? That report doesn't detail if the people that were dropping out were in the top 1 per cent or in the 20th percentile.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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I recall Howard mentioning somewhere that he wants the demand for places to dictate how many people can get into the courses and such, which was the basis for removing caps on DFEE places. Sounds a bit shatty.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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politik said:
DFEE accounts for so little of total placement, that it makes no difference the caps are being removed - DFEE places are way below the caps now anyway.

Furthermore DFEE places along with FEE-HELP, allow students with unforeseen circumstances at examination time get into University, because they may only be within the five-point UAI buffer in front of a course.

This fucking Labor rhetoric about DFEE has to stop. It does not primarily favour the rich.
It allows students with unforseen circumstances to get into uni? I'd love to see some stats to back up that pov.

musk: I'll have a look in the herald later. i could be wrong, but i did read something like that somewhere.
 
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_dhj_

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There seems to be a sentiment that DFEE somehow allows those who badly want to enter a course or, due to 'unforeseen circumstances' fails to attain a CSP place. However, those who just missed out could simply work hard and transfer into the course of their choice. Of course, one feels sympathy towards those who just missed out on a CSP place. In reality, for those students the best option (assuming that they don't have unlimited means), is to attempt to transfer, since they should get through easily due to their already high uai contribution. On the other hand, the UAI of most DFEE entrants are significantly lower than the requisite cutoffs for CSP places (with the exception of courses in extreme high demand such as USyd Law).

The point is that no matter how you justify it, DFEE entrance depend on the means of the student, not the merit.
 

Serius

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banco55 said:
cutting down on the number of people going to uni would be a good start. 15 % of the 18 year old cohort would be a good target.
umm, what about our struggling sectors e.g nursing, teaching....you dont need to be a genious to do that, and we really really need people in those courses.
 

Aryanbeauty

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Democrats Senator Natasha Stott Despoja warned it would dramatically increase the debt burden on students.
It will also make them to work harder to pay off their debts.

Originally Posted by Musk

I think the best way to solve the Skills shortage is to pair up all B Arts degree with another course/degree that would be actually useful
I agree, there are way too many arts students; mostly bums, spending more time on useless thing such creating anti-war posters, protesting for their right to have sex in toilet and sitting all day at unibar than actually spending time for studies.
 

banco55

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Serius said:
umm, what about our struggling sectors e.g nursing, teaching....you dont need to be a genious to do that, and we really really need people in those courses.
Nurses would be educated at polytechnics. If you have a look at the Ivy League, Cambridge, Oxford etc. none of them teach nursing.
 

Tulipa

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Arts degrees = teachers.

Every person that bashes arts degrees should really shut up.

:)

EDIT: Also, I completely agree with what Bishop's done here. It makes sense and hopefully it's another step to federalisation of the education system.
 

banco55

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Tulipa said:
Arts degrees = teachers.

Every person that bashes arts degrees should really shut up.

:)

EDIT: Also, I completely agree with what Bishop's done here. It makes sense and hopefully it's another step to federalisation of the education system.
I doubt that people with arts degrees who go on to become teachers come to more then a small proportion of arts graduates.
 

Tulipa

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Basically everyone I know doing arts is looking to be a teacher of some sort.

High school or stay on at Uni as well as people wanting to be interpreters (langauge) and teach English/other languages overseas.

What would suggest though? Get rid of arts and what, have no humanities or languages base??
 

_dhj_

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politik said:
Try justifying that to someone who wants to transfer from UNSW Arts to UNSW Law. You need something of a mark of 90+ and an original UAI of above 90 to even contemplate it.
If you really wanted to do law and obtained a low uai there are still options available like UWS. There, if you work hard and score outstanding marks you can still land a position in a top firm. In addition, there are also graduate places available at UNSW Law. Here, we are talking about a degree in high demand - Law, at one of the top universities in Australia. Of course there's going to be fierce competition for places. What's unfair is the fact that the entrance requirement into such a sort after course can be arbitrarily lowered just because you are some rich kid that lives in teh eastern suburbs. Those kids already had a sizable advantage by receiving private tutoring and going to some top private school. There's no need to further their advantage in a way that is blatantly unfair.
 

withoutaface

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_dhj_ said:
If you really wanted to do law and obtained a low uai there are still options available like UWS. There, if you work hard and score outstanding marks you can still land a position in a top firm. In addition, there are also graduate places available at UNSW Law. Here, we are talking about a degree in high demand - Law, at one of the top universities in Australia. Of course there's going to be fierce competition for places. What's unfair is the fact that the entrance requirement into such a sort after course can be arbitrarily lowered just because you are some rich kid that lives in teh eastern suburbs. Those kids already had a sizable advantage by receiving private tutoring and going to some top private school. There's no need to further their advantage in a way that is blatantly unfair.
But this is the leftist philosophy of "the rich shouldn't get it better than the poor, even if it absolutely benefits the poor, they still shouldn't".
 

volition

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I was under the impression that the existence of full fee places created MORE places for everyone(as in, there are more CSP places because of full fee places existing) full stop? Does anyone know?

Because if this is true, then I don't see a need to destroy full fee places. It seems like the politics of envy once again, as waf touches on there.
 

_dhj_

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withoutaface said:
But this is the leftist philosophy of "the rich shouldn't get it better than the poor, even if it absolutely benefits the poor, they still shouldn't".
It doesn't absolutely benefit the poor. The fact that there are more places for a degree doesn't increase the demand in the employment market for that degree. In the end, those with means are given more opportunities than those with merit. It is also inefficient and unfair because increased opportunities for the rich in attaining the degree increases opportunities for preferential treatment to those with the connections.
 
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