Russia 'goes to war' with Georgia (6 Viewers)

[Aryanbeauty]

And another point about Russia controlling oil, the world's largest oil reserves are held by Saudis and Canada NOT Russia. Canada is right next to USA and US can live without Russian oil for the next 180 years at current production rate. Where as Russian reserves will be used up within the next 17 years unless they lobbied hard for BP, shell and Exxon etc to drill more deeper waters.

So your point regarding oil dependent US economy cannot be sustained is TRASHED. Even with record high oil prices for the past 6 months US economy just grew 3.3 % which by all means is impressive in a developed country.

 

[sam04u]

And another point about Russia controlling oil, the world's largest oil reserves are held by Saudis and Canada NOT Russia. Canada is right next to USA and US can live without Russian oil for the next 180 years at current production rate. Where as Russian reserves will be used up within the next 17 years unless they lobbied hard for BP, shell and Exxon etc to drill more deeper waters.

Are you delusional? Are you talking about the same oil which costs an arm and a leg, and the American people can barely afford? 180 more years of that and Americans will probably give up automobiles altogether. oil is a limited resource, I doubt America can live for 180 years on it's own oil reserves. Moreso, you shouldn't be gullible enough to believe the Middle East isn't going to wake up sooner rather than later and put a lid on their oil exports under the U.S controlled petro dollar.

The difference between Russia and America is people will still be willing to trade with Russia in the future, if anything, to be a counterbalance to the U.S

Then again, even that's not neccessary. You can deny it all you like, but America is fading away into obscurity. A decade ago, the U.S was more greatly feared than it is now. You know there is a reason Russia decided to step up and put an end to the regional degradation of it's rightful influence.

You need to get ready to accept some facts AryanBeauty.

China, Russia and India are the future global superpowers. Industrially, the U.S can't compete with these countries alone, militarily the U.S can't compete with these countries combined.

What this means is the U.S hegemony has ended. Russia had been asleep for a little too long, but Putin woke her up.

 

[Captain Hero]

Are you delusional? Are you talking about the same oil which costs an arm and a leg, and the American people can barely afford?

Loal claims. Greater fuel efficiency and the move to using trains instead of trucks for heaps of stuff in the states should fix that problem. They pay about 1/3rd of what we pay and we do ALRIGHT for a fucking Island nation.

180 more years of that and Americans will probably give up automobiles altogether.

What about flying cars?

oil is a limited resource, I doubt America can live for 180 years on it's own oil reserves.

As if oil is going to be used for anything other than plastics in 100+ years time.

Moreso, you shouldn't be gullible enough to believe the Middle East isn't going to wake up sooner rather than later and put a lid on their oil exports under the U.S controlled petro dollar.

Already happening. Moving to the Euro by the end of the year yee-haw.

The difference between Russia and America is people will still be willing to trade with Russia in the future, if anything, to be a counterbalance to the U.S

That does not make sense. That does not make ANY sense. I think the OPPOSITE is correct for no reason other than I think Russians are Imperialist instead of America. I now win the debate by saying you lose. Mua ha ha!

Then again, even that's not neccessary. You can deny it all you like, but America is fading away into obscurity. A decade ago, the U.S was more greatly feared than it is now. You know there is a reason Russia decided to step up and put an end to the regional degradation of it's rightful influence.

Rightful influence? Regional degradation? Greatly feared? Dude... you have some messed up views of nation-states, the influence of government and how to, y'know, maintain world peace.

Trade is the only path to world peace and security. All other paths (Military, Oppression, force, yardaryardaryarder) are nonsense.

China, Russia and India are the future global superpowers. Industrially, the U.S can't compete with these countries alone, militarily the U.S can't compete with these countries combined.

Rise of the rest boyyyy read that book yo. Who cares about Militarily anyway? The more we trade the less we need armies because the more money relies on people getting the fuck along.

What this means is the U.S hegemony has ended. Russia had been asleep for a little too long, but Putin woke her up.

Yay, yay, Russia's going to take over that nation and then do nothing. Great to see you're barely containing your jubilation that a substantially less free nation than the states is roaring up against the world and has far less to lose than the states does. Woohoo, this is so good, death to America, russia is the future blah blah blah.

ANYONE BUT AMERICA, RIGHT?

 

[Admiral Nelson]

This is definately different to Russia secretly handing out passports to later claim a CB or such an action. If they publicly offered citizenship to the people living there, and they accepted, I'm not sure what the problem is - specifically, given this happened a while back.

You see nothing wrong with offering a passport en masse to citizens of a foreign nation? It's simple. The Russians did this just so they would have a constitutional and legitimate reason to attack the Georgians should they try to push into South Ossetia. The Russian's did it a while back because they knew it was just a matter of time until this would eventually happen.

Seems to me many imply this all happened in a short period of time, whereas the Russians secretly distributed fake Russian passports, to claim it's citizens live there, hence they should invade to prevent Georgia from harming them, etc - which is a twisted version of the truth.

I'm not saying that at all. They're legitimate and legal passports distributed openly and publicly. But it was done entirely to act as a cassus belli.

It is a true fact that Russia has many ethnic groups within it. Probably more than the majority of countries on Earth, yet these people all identify as Russian, including the Ossetians of North Ossetia. They are quite happy to be a Russian republic, and have never staged campaigns of independence.

All those people damn well don't identify as Russian. Russia is not like Australia, in that everyone has a different ethnicity but nominally identify as "Australian". In Russia, it's your ethnic group first and THEN the idea of "Russianness". Ossetians don't see themselves as Russian, but as Ossetian. They're happy to be part of Russia because they're an economically infeasible entity, and because they're given wide ranging freedom to basically govern themselves under the auspices of Russian control. It is an Ossetian nation within Russia, basically. There's no reason to push for any more independence.

I am sure that many of them use Russian on a day-to-day basis, since it is the only language I have ever heard Ossetians speak, whether it be on Eastern or Western media.

Maybe, just maybe, it's because they realise that a language spoken by two-hundred million people would be easier to translate than that of half a million? And yes, basically all of them know Russian, as it's been a Russian policy for over two centuries now to enforce the Russian culture and language on those that lived there. Though now this has eased up a lot, the linguistic result still stands. I am fairly certain Ossetian is spoken mostly in those regions, but both are probably widespread in Ossetia.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

You see nothing wrong with offering a passport en masse to citizens of a foreign nation? It's simple.

Actually it's not (that simple). What constitutes a nation is a very complicated matter. Just because there is an imaginary geographic border somewhere, doesn't mean that the people on one side of this imaginary boundary are completely different to the people on the other side.

All former USSR republics have a lot of Russians (and once again, Russia has many ethnicities itself). And in the last few years, the Russian government has committed a lot of effort to make it easy for Russians aboard to be able to get back in easily. This isn't limited to people in South Ossetia, or even Eurasia.

They're legitimate and legal passports distributed openly and publicly. But it was done entirely to act as a cassus belli.

This is the theoretical part. You could claim that it was done to provoke a future war, or you could claim that they were simply looking after people whom were historical part of Russia. Note that I'm not claimed that Ossetia was always part of Russia, but it was for a reasonably long time.

All those people damn well don't identify as Russian. Russia is not like Australia, in that everyone has a different ethnicity but nominally identify as "Australian". In Russia, it's your ethnic group first and THEN the idea of "Russianness". Ossetians don't see themselves as Russian, but as Ossetian. They're happy to be part of Russia because they're an economically infeasible entity, and because they're given wide ranging freedom to basically govern themselves under the auspices of Russian control. It is an Ossetian nation within Russia, basically. There's no reason to push for any more independence.

I probably don't want to get into the debate of what constitutes nationality and ethnicity, as it's a complex topic.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

All former USSR republics have a lot of Russians (and once again, Russia has many ethnicities itself). And in the last few years, the Russian government has committed a lot of effort to make it easy for Russians aboard to be able to get back in easily. This isn't limited to people in South Ossetia, or even Eurasia.

That's lovely and all, but the Ossetians aren't Russian in the slightest sense of the term. The "Russians" for whom it is being made easier to immigrate and gain citizenship are ethnic Russians. Germany has a similar program, which it only extends to ethnic Germans.

This is the theoretical part. You could claim that it was done to provoke a future war, or you could claim that they were simply looking after people whom were historical part of Russia. Note that I'm not claimed that Ossetia was always part of Russia, but it was for a reasonably long time.

Ossetians have been part of Russia for about as long as Georgia. Notice how distinctily different the treatment is? If they were being rather nice to everyone that was once part of the Russian Empire there are plenty more things they could do than to just extend the offer to seventy-thousand people who just happen to be under the nominal rule of a foreign nation who is extremely anti Russian and itching to regain full rule.

I probably don't want to get into the debate of what constitutes nationality and ethnicity, as it's a complex topic.

It is a very complex topic, but I'm just saying that Ossetians aren't the slightest bit Russian. That's the understanding I get from the news, essays, and the various Russians I've managed to speak to.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

That's lovely and all, but the Ossetians aren't Russian in the slightest sense of the term.

I suppose I'll just disagree.

It is a very complex topic, but I'm just saying that Ossetians aren't the slightest bit Russian. That's the understanding I get from the news, essays, and the various Russians I've managed to speak to.

So what do you consider Ossetians? An ethnicity? A race? Just a specific group of people?

If they speak Russian (in addition to other languages. Practically any Russian knows multiple languages, even if from school), then there isn't a great deal of difference between them and the rest of the people whom live in Russia.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

So what do you consider Ossetians? An ethnicity? A race? Just a specific group of people?

The Ossetians are a unique ethnic and cultural group. Not what I consider them to be, what they are.

If they speak Russian (in addition to other languages. Practically any Russian knows multiple languages, even if from school), then there isn't a great deal of difference between them and the rest of the people whom live in Russia.

That's stupid. It's like saying, if they speak English, then there is little difference between then and everyone else that speaks English.

 

[Captain Hero]

http://www.jewwatch.com/

Dw guys these dudes have it covered

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Jew Watch has made me laugh for at least two years now

 

[Starcraftmazter]

The Ossetians are a unique ethnic and cultural group. Not what I consider them to be, what they are.

Ok. So by logic, there are Ossetians whom live in North Ossetia. North Ossetia is part of the Russian Federation, and all Ossetians there are Russian citizens, whom are so by logic, wouldn't the same be perfectly logical and acceptable for South Ossetians?

That's stupid. It's like saying, if they speak English, then there is little difference between then and everyone else that speaks English.

From a certain perspective, that is certainly true.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

From a certain perspective, that is certainly true.

As much as I usually am respectful in a debate, the only perspective that is from is an idiotic one.

Ok. So by logic, there are Ossetians whom live in North Ossetia. North Ossetia is part of the Russian Federation, and all Ossetians there are Russian citizens, whom are so by logic, wouldn't the same be perfectly logical and acceptable for South Ossetians?

I am talking about the Russian ethnic and linguistic group. The North Ossetians are citizens of the nation of Russia, but they're not ethnically Russian. South Ossetians are also citizens of Russia, due to the passport deal, but they're not of the Russian ethnic group. You seem to be having trouble separating the ethnic group from the nation in this case.

I'm actually confused as to what I'm even discussing anymore, I thought it was an obvious fact Ossetians weren't Russian.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

I am talking about the Russian ethnic and linguistic group. The North Ossetians are citizens of the nation of Russia, but they're not ethnically Russian. South Ossetians are also citizens of Russia, due to the passport deal, but they're not of the Russian ethnic group. You seem to be having trouble separating the ethnic group from the nation in this case.

This is where the debate about what constitues a nation and what constitues an ethnic group is, and whether certain ethnic groups belong to the identify of a certain nation.

You also mention the Russian linguistic group...well the Russian language is very diverse, and there are numerous "dialects" if you feel. All of them are very similar, and it's easy enough to understand them knowing only one.

It's similar to the case with many other major European countries in the last several centuries, before their push to standardise one language which was the most common or rather used by the elites, and have all people use it.

I'm actually confused as to what I'm even discussing anymore, I thought it was an obvious fact Ossetians weren't Russian.

Something similar to that.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Ossetic, though, isn't related to Russian at all. Well, it is in the way that it was from the same linguistic branch millenia ago, but it's not related to modern Russian beyond the distant ancestory.

And the Russian nation is the nation primarily inhabited by Eastern Slavs known as Russians, who speak the Russian language and have the Russian culture. Ossetians live in the Russian nation, have the Ossetian culture, speak Ossetic and are from the Iranian ethnic group.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

But Russia is, in every way, a country of many ethnic groups.

This seems like an endless debate.

 

[writer'sblock]

I don't think you get the implications of this Slidey. Russia has always sold weapons to middle eastern countries. Albeit, they were generally pre-soviet production weaponry. What this suggests is Russia will be selling modern weapons to the nations who've been longing for them.

This will be the first time in history for this to happen. During the major Arab-Israeli wars, the Soviet Union was the best friend of Israel, and offered them weapons en masse at discounted prices. But look how Israel repays Russia. By training, arming, and befriending Georgia which has recently commited an act of aggression against the russian people. Hell, the Georgian Minister of Defence is an Israeli.

Otherwise, I see no problem with this. Russia is pretty much just taking Israel off it's friend list. They wont attack Israel, they wont threaten Israel, they just wont be doing them anymore favours.

Russian people - these people were the Georgians whom the Russians gave passports to in preparation for the conflict. Tensions have been simmering for years. there's been a lot of wars in the region, for good reason too. The Geogians went into their soveriegn territory where people had acquired Russian passports after they rebelled! It was Georgia's right to defend it's soveriegn land, and Russia's right to defend it's citizens but the "Russian citizens" in Georgia stayed in GEorgia after becoming Russian citizens, thus giving Russia no right to invade. It came down to might verus right, and might won.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

South Ossetia declared independence, and under a European treaty, Georgia was not to conduct military operations there.

Furthermore, one's citizens do not need to be in a certain place to be defended.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Yet, many of these "citzens" haven't been to Russia, and only a very few were even born there, and almost none have lived there. There people are hardly "citizens" in the general sense of the word. They're only technically citizens due to their passport, but in reality they're Georgian Ossetians.

It's not a hard concept to fathom.

 

[sam04u]

Yet, many of these "citzens" haven't been to Russia, and only a very few were even born there, and almost none have lived there. There people are hardly "citizens" in the general sense of the word. They're only technically citizens due to their passport, but in reality they're Georgian Ossetians.

It's not a hard concept to fathom.

I am seriously unable to understand the nature of your argument on this topic, Admiral Nelson. You agree that Georgia was largely at fault in initiating this conflict, yet you also believe that the South Ossetians were infact "Georgians".

In order to agree that Georgia is at fault for it's aggression, you have to accept that the South Ossetian 'province' if you will, was independant from Georgia, and accept the validity of the peace treaty which was signed by the involved parties.

When you take that into account, Russia enforcing the treaty, protecting it's stationed peace keepers and it's citizens can only be accepted as a rational response.

So what exactly of the major contentions in this argument do you disagree with?

1) Do you accept the treaty signed by the involved parties?
2) Do you accept that as per the agreement Russia had stationed peace keepers, which were very lightly armed (an automatic weapon)?
3) Do you accept that the South Ossetians which agreed, and infact wanted Russian passports, had a right to obtain them, and as such have a right to be protected by Russia?
4) Do you accept that as per the agreement, Georgia has no right to dictate what the South Ossetians do with themselves?
5) Do you accept Russia reacted exactly as Georgia expected they would?

 

[Aryanbeauty]

Are you delusional? Are you talking about the same oil which costs an arm and a leg, and the American people can barely afford? 180 more years of that and Americans will probably give up automobiles altogether. oil is a limited resource, I doubt America can live for 180 years on it's own oil reserves. Moreso, you shouldn't be gullible enough to believe the Middle East isn't going to wake up sooner rather than later and put a lid on their oil exports under the U.S controlled petro dollar.

Yes check world oil reserves here and how long they will last.

Saudis have 260 billion barrels which will last at current extraction rate, 81 Years.

Canada has 179 billion barrels of oil which will lalst for the nest 182 years at current extration rate.

Russia has ONLY 60 billion barrels lasting a mere 17 years.

And Middle East is not going to switch allegiance to Russia from USA not now, not tomorrow, Never! And no they are not going to switch to Euro, keep those wishful thinking to yourself.

The difference between Russia and America is people will still be willing to trade with Russia in the future, if anything, to be a counterbalance to the U.S

Then again, even that's not neccessary. You can deny it all you like, but America is fading away into obscurity. A decade ago, the U.S was more greatly feared than it is now. You know there is a reason Russia decided to step up and put an end to the regional degradation of it's rightful influence.

LOL yeah, EU is mulling trade sanction against Russia as we speak, and the only FRIENDS of Russia are Venezuela, Syria,Iran and North Korea LOL! Where as the whole world is basically on America's side. Even China and Central Asian countries rebuffed Russian plea to support in Georgia.

You need to get ready to accept some facts AryanBeauty.

China, Russia and India are the future global superpowers. Industrially, the U.S can't compete with these countries alone, militarily the U.S can't compete with these countries combined.

What this means is the U.S hegemony has ended. Russia had been asleep for a little too long, but Putin woke her up.

LOL, keep dreaming, China, Russia and India combined will be as strong as 1/3rd of US military might. Any case, none of them are allies. China and Russia are rivals in central asia, India and China are fighting over Kashmir, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh for half a century and those differences are yet to be resolved. I am not surprised China cant even launch military attack to recover tiny Island called Taiwan 100 miles from China, not to talk of fighting USA LOL! I feel sorry that your dream of multipolar world will never come true, simply becacuse US economy and military is bigger and stronger than Russia, China and India combined.

US GDP $ 13.8 trillion > Russia,China,India GDP $ 5.5 Trillion LMFAO!