Shooting Brazillian man was a "mistake" (3 Viewers)

[HotShot]

Thats Crazy, Eight Bullets, I Mean Thats Bad!

I Know To Some Extent The Police May Need To Shoot Somone, But Hey You Only Need One Bullet And He Is Better Wounded Than Dead!

I Have Feeling The Police Screwed Big Time And If They Let Him Live, It Will Become To Clear He Wasnt A Terrorist And Huge Blunder The Police Made And So They Kkilled To Cover It Up!>

 

[heybraham]

That is where your logic fails you. Terrorists don't have guns, or anything obvious. You tend to not know for certain that a person is a terrorist until you see a bomb (which would require you to be able to see through their bags) or your blown up.

Next is the fallacy, which others have also expressed, in thinking that 'if innocent people are in jail who dont deserve to be there, then the police who stuffed up should be in there too.' Why think that we should accept the antecedent? I would say, none of them deserve to be in there and we shouldnt accept any of it.

If anything, your attitude alone is shit tattodguy, because while all of us may disagree on whether it was right/wrong for what the police are doing, and either way doesnt have a clear answer, your too dam focused on making sure the police are jailed soley relying on the premise 'because innocent people have been jailed' ( hinting that a wrong should be continued) without thinking to criticise that premise. very lame.

this existence is not designed to obvious, plain black-and-white. Nothing is absolute apart from one thing: you're wrong.

seriously, all these measures in the effort to make life difficult for terrorists (and obviously NON-terrorists alike) aren't going to stop them.

do you seriously think will go "hmm...western governments are being bigger assholes to us and even their own citizens, i guess i'll just umm...give up, it's too like...risky.'

when a security measure does work do you know what terrorists will say?
'if at first you don't succeed, try again.

"The trouble is, my dear Prime Minister, that the other side can do magic too" - Cornelius Fudge

 

[tempco]

http://smh.com.au/ffxmedia/2005/08/17/DeMenezesfactvfiction.jpg

http://smh.com.au/news/world/the-lo...-police-fantasy/2005/08/17/1123958125899.html

i can't believe no one has commented on these articles.

a brief summary (information taken from wikipedia):

Britain's ITV News Network obtained a leaked document from the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC).

Clothing

The Observer stated he was wearing a "baseball cap, blue fleece and baggy trousers."

Mark Whitby, a witness to the shooting, told Reuters that he observed Menezes wearing a large winter coat, which "looked out of place".

Vivien Figueiredo, a cousin of Menezes, claimed that she had been told by police that Menezes was wearing a denim jacket on the day of the shooting.

According to the report on leaked IPCC documents, Menezes was wearing a pair of jeans and a light denim jacket. These facts were confirmed by a photo of his body on the floor of the carriage after the shooting.

Image

Police challenge

Police intially claimed that they challenged Menezes and ordered him to stop outside Stockwell station. Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said in a press conference that a warning was issued prior to the shooting.

The leaked IPCC documents indicated that Menezes was seated on the train carriage when the SO19 armed unit arrived. A shout of 'police' may have been made, but the suspect never really had an opportunity to respond to it in any way before he was shot. The leaked documents also indicated that he was restrained by an unarmed officer prior to being shot.

according to this, the police did not identify themselves prior to Menezes entering the station.

Ticket barrier

Eyewitnesses claim that up to twenty police officers in plainclothes pursued Menezes into Stockwell station, that he jumped over the ticket barrier, ran down an escalator and tried to jump onto a train.

According to the leaked IPCC documents, Menezes passed through the barrier normally using his pre-paid oyster card.

According to Menezes' family, Menezes did not actually jump over the ticket barrier and may have used a standard London Travel Card to pass the turnstile.

Motivation for running

Possible reasons why Menezes "ran" from the police, as indicated by initial reports.

• He had been attacked by a gang and may have relived the situation upon seeing plainclothes officers chasing him.
• Irregularities about his immigration status may have given him reason to be wary of the police.
• Menezes' student visa had expired, suggesting that he was working illegally, thus fearful of being deported by authorities.
• SMH reported that a work colleague believed that Menezes ran simply because he was late for his job.

It was later indicated by the leaked IPCC documents that Menezes ran across the platform apparently to get a seat on the train, but did not know at the time that he was being watched or pursued.

Gun shots

It was initially stated by police that Menezes was shot five times in the head. Mark Whitby, a passenger on the train Menezes had run onto, said: "one of [the police officers] was carrying a black handgun—it looked like an automatic—He half tripped… they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him."

The leaked IPCC documents also indicated that three shots missed, and the spent cartridges were found in the carriage.

 

[heybraham]

yeah my previous post was in reference to that article. and all my posts on this thread before that was under my own suspicions of a cover-up but the govt. not enough info was released when the 'fake' news was released and i just didn't buy it. ...cyan did.

i hate how people think governments are actually doing somethign against terrorism, because blatantly, they are the very contrary. outrageous stuff like this just become more incentive for extremists to cast more attacks on western governments which are proven, as in this case, damn stupid.

it's like those damn energy-saving light-bulbs that governments always promote. i mean lightbulbs use the least energy in the household and they keep promoting it so that we'll think they are actually doing something for the environment. which is clearly not the case.

disgraceful.

 

[Cyan_phoeniX]

yeah my previous post was in reference to that article. and all my posts on this thread before that was under my own suspicions of a cover-up but the govt. not enough info was released when the 'fake' news was released and i just didn't buy it. ...cyan did.

i'm going by what news is given out, if its wrong then my opinion will change. No point calling what news you don't believe in 'fake' and what you like that goes with your argument 'the truth.' Your right, there seems to be 10 different versions to the story, and so i will repeat what i said: IF (conditional) the police did make themselves known and IF he did wear a big jacket, then given the circumstances i think what was done had to be done. If it happened differently, then i haven't committed an opinion.

I mean, eywitnesses claim he jumped over the ticket barrier, his family says he didnt. Who do we believe?

And i don't care if it doesn't work. I never touched on how effective shooting suspected terrorists would be in stopping terrrism in the future, pretty lousy actually, but it is an attempt at stopping instances of it. And dont start about lightbulbs. im already sick of the introduction of other topics in this thread-this thread and my argument is about this case. fullstop.

 

[tempco]

i'm going by what news is given out, if its wrong then my opinion will change. No point calling what news you don't believe in 'fake' and what you like that goes with your argument 'the truth.' Your right, there seems to be 10 different versions to the story, and so i will repeat what i said: IF (conditional) the police did make themselves known and IF he did wear a big jacket, then given the circumstances i think what was done had to be done. If it happened differently, then i haven't committed an opinion.

I mean, eywitnesses claim he jumped over the ticket barrier, his family says he didnt. Who do we believe?

And i don't care if it doesn't work. I never touched on how effective shooting suspected terrorists would be in stopping terrrism in the future, pretty lousy actually, but it is an attempt at stopping instances of it. And dont start about lightbulbs. im already sick of the introduction of other topics in this thread-this thread and my argument is about this case. fullstop.

it's quite disturbing that so much information given out by the media/police were wrong. the media isn't too much of the problem, but it is for the police.

as for your opinion, he was wearing a denim jacket and jeans. i don't consider that a big/bulky jacket which could potentially conceal a bomb vest of some kind.

as for making themselves known, it's a fact that Menezes was pursued all the way from his house to the train station without knowing police were following him. as to what happened after that, we don't know for sure - but i'm leaning towards negligence on behalf of the police.

eyewitness reports state that Menezes jumped over the ticket counter - however, wikipedia states that it was actually an officer who jumped over the ticket, not Menezes (which is a completely understandable mistake).

the leaked documents state that the police identified themselves after Menezes had boarded the train, and right before he was shot. if that is the case, the group of policemen involved in the shooting (particularly the one who fired the shots) should be brought to court.

 

[HotShot]

Now we all understand tat the british police made a huge mistake, and let me convince why?

Well, we all know that police have guns and batons etc "pepper spray". So obviosly that wont surprise anyone.

next cops roles is to maintain control and arrest sussy ppl. They have handcuffs and can call back-up as well using radios.

next we know that bombs dont just blow up like a baloon they have potential to kill more than one person and those nearby are pretty dead.

thats what everyone knows about cops, we also know as someone said they have the right to use the gun for self-defence.

Now lets check the brazil dude, firstly reports say he ran away from 'the police'. Now how do we know who he is running away from, lots ppl run they maybe late and need to catch somone etc. Next reports say he had a bomb, -- would you chase somone with a bomb?--i mean it would be suicide and may tempt him to blow up?

next why is it necessary to expend like 6-8 bullets on a person? let alone if he wasnt verified? why wasnt backup called? why wasnt the person verified? ppl say time? but if you chase u rush him to blow up?

ppl run for all reasons might be from anyone or just late and need hurry and this therefore no reason to kill someone or suggest he is a terrorist. Also he did jump over the counter that part is verified he apparently was working at the stations omething got to do with electrical.


Also after his dead there is no evidence suggesting he was a terrorist--thus therefore the british made a huge mistake. Also they found no bombs in his jacket wither?
It is quit eclear that they made a mistake and i think the media is just proloongiong twisting the story for ratings and money.

 

[turtleface]

First , Menezes then Rigoberto Alpizar. Though they aren't the only two to have been, lets face it, murdered by government authorities, they are the two most high profile in relation to "shoot to kill" policies for terrorism prevention. Though Alpizar in the U.S. was ignored in comparison due to government killings being common place there.

I'm sure many people have been killed in areas like Israel/Palestine and Iraq for similar reasons, but Menezes and Alpizar's death strikes closer to home, and they are at least publicised, so as far as we know the policy has been applied at least twice in the Western world (for fatal consequences) and twice it was an absolute disaster, and totally counter productive.

You have to wonder what kind of idiots devise these "shoot to kill" policies, especially as bombers are known to sometimes use a "dead man switch" which is designed to detonate explosives when the person carrying them is killed/incapacitated.

 

[Generator]

There's no need for event-specific threads this old to be bumped. If you'd like to discuss shoot to kill policies in general, please create a thread.