Should Muslim Holidays be recognised in Australia? (2 Viewers)

[ad infinitum]

tl;dr

All I know is from what I've skimmed + some of your previous posts, that you have a whole lot of it wrong. I stress that Islam as practiced over-the-seas in countries such as Saudi Arabia for example, is not 'true' Islam. The way they govern their people is fallacious and contradictory.
You either understand that line of information or not. Not much else can be said.

And no, Islam when properly practiced is not extreme. If it were practiced properly, I guarantee you crazy Islamic fundies would be non-existent.
Plus, Ayaan Hirsi is an annoying little bitch who got a little confuzzled between Islam and what her crazy shit tribe do.

Wow you really have no idea about anything. We don't have to talk about different Muslim's we only have to talk about Islam; the Koran (+the Hadith). If you read these documents you will understand that it preaches a great deal of hatred towards the infidel and instructs adherents to destroy infidels (or convert them), along with a great deal of other nonsense (just as the Bible).
A 'fundie' is simply someone who actually truly believes (and hence practices) what is written in the Koran. Whilst ''moderates' are those who chose to ignore the parts that are counter to modern secular values (i.e honour killing).

 

[Jeee]

Once the apologist, always the apologist.

Obviously you can't be reasoned with. Try reading my full post and my other posts are always of the highest quality unlike your bias.

Islam was born and bred over there- I'm not saying that certain aspects aren't politicised i.e. the Shiite v Sunni split, a monarch ruling in Saudi, but you are quite very wrong. You’re bringing your Australian conceptions of secular freedom and thinking into it. It's exactly the same with liberal Christians"- I personally don't buy it. You either accept thefundamental "truths" of a philosophy or don't identify with it.

I am arguing that Islam in its nature is an extreme claim to make and the nature of practice is extreme if taken seriously. Are you questioning the legitimacy of Sharia law or actually suggesting the Qu'ran should not be taken literally? You should be stoned under a "true" paradigm.

Fulfilling the 5 pillars is a lifelong commitment- it’s not a day-time philosophy. Any one that lives and breathes an absolutist world-view down to the microcosm is extreme. Islam has no real recognised liberal movements. That is, try advocating for women's rights or homosexuality under Mullah’s over in the Middle East.

Okay, I don't want to debate with you. You seem like an alright person outside of this issue and debating it online with a fellow BoSer who has a different view - and will forever maintain that view - is just time-consuming and unneccesary. Let it be.

 

[Jeee]

And please don't bring up Lebanon with "Christians and Muslims" living side-by-side, its a poor excuse for an Islamic country. The nation can't decide what it is. Probably a major reason why your here right now, not there.

Edit:

Define a "normal" (non-extreme)[ muslim life which is fully Qu'ranic.]

Why would I ever say that? Lebanon is a hazardous zone, divided heavily by political and religious factions.

 

[Cookie182]

Wow you really have no idea about anything. We don't have to talk about different Muslim's we only have to talk about Islam; the Koran (+the Hadith). If you read these documents you will understand that it preaches a great deal of hatred towards the infidel and instructs adherents to destroy infidels (or convert them), along with a great deal of other nonsense (just as the Bible).
A 'fundie' is simply someone who actually truly believes (and hence practices) what is written in the Koran. Whilst ''moderates' are those who chose to ignore the parts that are counter to modern secular values (i.e honour killing).

Exactly.

I'm arguing that if any (and its small) "moderate" movements exist, they are within secular nations influenced by secular values (the enlightenment).

True Islam is still stuck in the 7th century when it was first revealed. In fact, Islam markets itself on this fact- that unlike Christianity it remains 'pure', against all the different Biblical printings/interpretations and of course the reformation.. It's fixated on a world beyond here. Christianity (in its true form) is similar, but its been undermined by the enlightenment and for good reason.

In essence, if your gonna "mix and match' secular values with "bits and pieces" of Islam more for its cutural heritage value stop professing your a muslim. Unlike Christianity, Islam lacks much of the "humanist" side to it anyway. I mean what messages of love would you choose (your better of with Shakespeare). The majority of the Qu'ran and Hadiths outline a LIFE for followers- with a legal system and all. You accept it or you don't.

It's extreme in it's very nature. I mean after all, Mohammed was a disorientated war-lord who happily killed to spread his political philosophy. It's extreme.

 

[Cookie182]

Why would I ever say that? Lebanon is a hazardous zone, divided heavily by political and religious factions.

I'm a seasoned debator on the topic and it is one of the most common (if not embarassing rebuttals I get all the time).

Quite frankly I am sick of AUSTRALIANS (you either are or your not) with cultural ties to Lebanon and a "professed" kinship to Islam thinking they know what Islam is. Most haven't done any research whatsoever, but they could tell you how fervently they despise Jews.

It's not an "issue" that I'm wrong on. I'm simply highlighting the facts of your professed religion. I apply the same ruthless logic to christianity.

If you can't agree on the basic tenents, I am going to have conclude you are not a Muslim indeed.

Ask yourself, is there things you do here in which you know wholeheartedly you would be slaughtered for under full Sharia?

If so, and given you do agree with the Qu'ranic vision of the giant scale on your judgement before Allah, you must know then that your threatening your chances into paradise. If you think, meh, a lot of that stuff is anal and could be wrong, then you are not muslim- probably at best an agnostic theist.

 

[Jeee]

Why the hell are you talking about Lebanon?
I'm not even Lebanese, so this is not relative whatsoever.

 

[justanotherposter]

She's not right. The religious holidays were put in by an establishment a long time ago (believe it or not, this country did have a large Christian majority), a majority they still maintain today and are today viewed by most Australians as secular holidays. Not only this, but they're also fully integrated into society now - our calendar year runs by them, our public and (most) private schools run their terms by them etc.

Our calendar year runs by public holidays??!?! Right, I plan my entire year around that 1 day off for Easter I'd get in my 2 week semester break. Hell, I remember in school I wasn't excited about the 6 weeks I had off for end-of-year holidays, it was that 3 days off for Christmas that made me jizz my pants.

I'm sick of all you apologists. Keysar Trad made another shit mistake saying this statement. Now stop going "oooooh, he's partly right."

And we're sick of you morons. Where did we say that Muslims deserve public holidays? I sure as hell never said it. Where did we say he was even partly right? Arguing that all religious public holidays should be abolished isn't the same as arguing that every religion has the right to establish their own public holiday you retard.

No one has a real problem with it as long as these holidays remain to be seen by the majority of Australians not as religious holidays, despite their guise, but as secular holidays.

Do you live under a rock? During Christmas there is a barrage of TV specials about Jesus, cunts knocking on my door and pamphlets fucking everywhere preaching the word of Christ. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU CLAIM IT TO BE SEEN AS EVEN REMOTELY SECULAR?!
I'll admit that Easter has pretty much jack all to do with Christianity now but chances are that the majority of Australians still know it's about the rebirth of Christ.

 

[Cookie182]

Why the hell are you talking about Lebanon?
I'm not even Lebanese, so this is not relative whatsoever.

I am saying that most Australian-Lebanese I have argued this with go down that path and its embarrassing, there's quite a few on here like "zazzy".

Your background is?

I'd prefer to just say your Australian, but it wouldnt be realistic. Your Islam had to come from somewhere overseas...

 

[Jeee]

I am saying that most Australian-Lebanese I have argued this with go down that path and its embarrassing, there's quite a few on here like "zazzy".

Okay, why the hell would you talk to zazzy about it? That uleh doesn't know left from right. And you're narrow-minded. What shit debates you must have had.

I'd prefer to just say your Australian, but it wouldnt be realistic. Your Islam had to come from somewhere overseas...

Background/ethnicity is not the same as nationality. However, a person may possess one for the two.

 

[justanotherposter]

A bit off topic aren't we?

 

[Cookie182]

Okay, why the hell would you talk to zazzy about it? That uleh doesn't know left from right. And you're narrow-minded. What shit debates you must have had.



Background/ethnicity is not the same as nationality. However, a person may possess one for the two.

Two things/

-Narrow minded lol. Do remember I'm not the one professing belief in an absolute. I simply stated facts you didn't want to hear, it's your choice whether you can reconcile with the fact that Islam is extreme. Or you could be open minded and agnostic like myself, recognising the fallibility of man and that we DON'T know all the answers. Note I’m also a libertarian- it doesn’t get any more open minded.

-Of course there not- hence I already highlighted the fact that your Australian. But your obviously not only Aussie (i.e. Anglo) or you wouldn't be a muslim- it's come from a family heritage, i.e. your parents are from the Middle East, NE Africa or Pakistan, but I'm just guessing here...

Ask yourself though; if you did lack this "heritage" would you voluntarily take up Islam regardless? Be honest with yourself.

 

[Cookie182]

A bit off topic aren't we?

Right where we usually end up.

Facts to an apologist (who adheres to a neo-conservative, absolutist and bigoted world-view-...religion) are presented, they don't like it and subsequently call the atheist "narrow-minded". It's a common trend.

 

[ad infinitum]

Two things/

-Narrow minded lol. Do remember I'm not the one professing belief in an absolute. I simply stated facts you didn't want to hear, it's your choice whether you can reconcile with the fact that Islam is extreme. Or you could be open minded and agnostic like myself, recognising the fallibility of man and that we DON'T know all the answers. Note I’m also a libertarian- it doesn’t get any more open minded.

-Of course there not- hence I already highlighted the fact that your Australian. But your obviously not only Aussie (i.e. Anglo) or you wouldn't be a muslim- it's come from a family heritage, i.e. your parents are from the Middle East, NE Africa or Pakistan, but I'm just guessing here...

Ask yourself though; if you did lack this "heritage" would you voluntarily take up Islam regardless? Be honest with yourself.

your agnostic? don't you mean atheist...

Anyway, people like Jee aren't ready to debate their views because they don't really have any properly formed views.

 

[Jeee]

Honest answer: If I was born into a Christian family, I'd follow Christianity. Atheist family, I'd probably be an Atheist. Jew family, Jew. etc.

Yep, indeed, I'm not only Australian. I'm hyphenated.

 

[Jeee]

your agnostic? don't you mean atheist...

Anyway, people like Jee aren't ready to debate their views because they don't really have any properly formed views.

Or I'm tired and hungry and should be studying for English.

 

[Cookie182]

your agnostic? don't you mean atheist...

Anyway, people like Jee aren't ready to debate their views because they don't really have any properly formed views.

Oh by all means in a practical sense, yes, I am an atheist. That is, I would respond no to the question "Do you believe in God"- there is simply no credible evidence to reject the null hypothesis and accept this alternative.

Yet obviously I am also philosophically agnostic- I can't rule out the possibility of a creator actually existing, the same way I can't prove the negative of any hypothetical. Such is epistemology.

I'm also a self-professed humanist.

I think I have the most open-minded and credible position of all as I'm completely open to adaptation given new evidence. Having said that, I'm tolerant to the extent in which I am not bothered by other people pursuing their own path, given I'm not (or any third party) affected.

...fair stock standard position...

 

[Cookie182]

Honest answer: If I was born into a Christian family, I'd follow Christianity. Atheist family, I'd probably be an Atheist. Jew family, Jew. etc.

Yep, indeed, I'm not only Australian. I'm hyphenated.

+1

Most honest thing you have said.

 

[Jeee]

I'm always honest.

Are you white?

 

[Cookie182]

I'm always honest.

Are you white?

Tanned

 

[Jeee]

Tanned

Hmm.
You're Asian aren't you?