The Burkha, what do you think? Taliban or Qur'an? (2 Viewers)

[googooloo]

Just debate here about what you ppl think about the Burkha, and the Taliban. This comes from the recent article in the newspaper this week on crappy Afghan border secrurity, and rising Taliban forces.

 

[Rafy]

Oppression of women under the banner of religion. *shakes head*

 

[googooloo]

Oppression of women under the banner of religion. *shakes head*

What is oppressive about it in relation to the Burkha?

 

[Rafy]

Well i ask this question.

What exactly is acheived by entirely covering a woman's head?

 

[Sonic]

answer to question

the total covering is an extremist view yet the hijab is used to protect the woman from unwanted people abusing her because of her looks and her beauty..

i can't see why people are so against it... it's a part of religion and it should not cause so much problems.. maybe a little too extreme but it's what happens... the hijab is another way that should give a better indication...

 

[ogmzergrush]

it's a part of religion and it should not cause so much problems..

Forgive me for contributing nothing useful, but that made me laugh

 

[Sonic]

Oppression of women under the banner of religion. *shakes head*

i have said this many times there is no oppresion only choice people have the choice to do what they want... this statement will cause people to say otherwise, yet i know and i've heard both sides of the equation being an australian muslim...

if women don't want to be wearing the scarf of hijab... they can move away from their family members who pressure them.. it's that simple people have the choice yet some don't want to and others don't need to... if you know what i mean

 

[Generator]

the total covering is an extremist view yet the hijab is used to protect the woman from unwanted people abusing her because of her looks and her beauty..

In other words, it's a form of social control that requires a woman to account for the actions of others. Excellent.

*shakes head*

 

[tempco]

the total covering is an extremist view yet the hijab is used to protect the woman from unwanted people abusing her because of her looks and her beauty..

so, what about muslim women having their scarfs pulled off by racists pricks in suburbs with an anglo-saxon majority? wouldn't that be abuse because of her looks?

 

[tempco]

Oppression of women under the banner of religion.

voluntary "oppression" happens all the time.

i can argue along the same lines when a women wears a mini-skirt. but hey, no one complains about this since people get laid.

 

[somechick]

In other words, it's a form of social control that requires a woman to account for the actions of others. Excellent.

*shakes head*

*shakes head*

It certainly is a social control, but then again aren't the 'presentational' forms of law that are championed in the west methods of social control? Thats why its an offence to run around naked on the streets or in sporting games lol. That's a social control.
Prostitutes shunned to deepest darkest corners of the night and socially excluded because their 'costumes' or methods of presentation are unacceptable. Thats a social control.
I'm using these examples to show you how there are methods of social control in the west as well in terms of presenting yourself to society. I'm using these examples because they are unacceptable in both eastern or western societies. How you present yourself is your choice, your free will. Cultural studies will show you that EVERYTHING YOU DO IS A PERFORMANCE to society. So your claim that wearing the hijab is a social control is very correct. however, why is it such a bad thing to guard your modesty by wearing the hijab?

Women don't have to account for the actions of others, but they can PREVENT forms of harm coming to THEM with wearing skanky clothing eg rape or sexual harrasment. People prevent their worldy possessions such as their ipods or phones from getting stolen by hiding them, and men and women do the same for their boldily possessions whats so wrong with that? In the same way, that is a social control, WHY DO PEOPLE HIDE THEIR EXPENSIVE GOODS FROM GETTING STOLEN? thats a social control, which doesn't ask you to account for the wrong doing and criminal behaviour of others, but for them in the courts of law. It's the same thing in terms of the hijab. If a woman is violated, there are laws which protect her, both in the west and the east.
point: Prevention is different from accounting for others' behaviour.

The Quran asks both women AND men to lower their gaze (whether it be the gaze of power or the gaze of judgement etc).


Qur'ân: "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31).

 

[ogmzergrush]

well yeah, but we try to keep law and religion in two different baskets, don't we?

Read as: Where's the comparison between it being illegal to run around with no clothes on and a religion dictating attire?

 

[Generator]

Yes, there is a difference between preventing and accounting for another's behaviour, but when the justification for a particular device is provided in a manner similar to that which I quoted, I cannot help but think that the onus is upon women, not all, to moderate their behaviour.

This is meant to be a liberal democracy. There is no need for anyone to suggest that personal expression (be it with the hijab or a mini-skirt) should be curtailed merely because such a restrictive practice is meant to be 'preventative' in nature given sexual or political concerns, especially when such suggestions fail to address the key concerns (that of men's attitudes towards women and that of open and respectful political dialogue) in favour of a 'cop out'.

As for your quote from the Qur'ân, it seems to neglect the fact that both men and women are sensual beings by only requiring one sex to cover their features (the ellipsis was poorly placed, even if what was ommitted was of no real relevance).

 

[somechick]

Yes, there is a difference between preventing and accounting for another's behaviour, but when the justification for a particular device is provided in a manner similar to that which I quoted, I cannot help but think that the onus is upon women, not all, to moderate their behaviour.

This is meant to be a liberal democracy. There is no need for anyone to suggest that personal expression (be it with the hijab or a mini-skirt) should be curtailed merely because such a restrictive practice is meant to be 'preventative' in nature given sexual or political concerns, especially when such suggestions fail to address the key concerns (that of men's attitudes towards women and that of open and respectful political dialogue) in favour of a 'cop out'.

As for your quote from the Qur'ân, it seems to neglect the fact that both men and women are sensual beings by only requiring one sex to cover their features (the ellipsis was poorly placed, even if what was ommitted was of no real relevance).

Im sorry but some of your sentences don't make sense. Moreover, you can't understand contemporary cultures using traditional anthropology. Its an ethnography which requires you to experience it. but since i'm guessing that you're male, and anglo, you would never do such a thing . lol


"neglect the fact that...one sex to cover their features"

Men don't have boobs (well some don't lol). They dont have distinctly beautiful features as women do. men have sexual desires which somewhat outweigh those of women. Moreover, men don't have the powers women do. In this way, women are very powerful in their ability to control and influence the male (why do you think those music videos with bitches and ho's are so popular?). Islam recognises this, that women have powers beyond the male. But controlling those powers is one of personal inclination. You can manipulate men (here i get many signifiers: trophy wives, prostitution, selling yourself for material wealth: women are also oppressed in the west- the only way some pop stars get ahead is by taking their clothes off eww jessica simpson). But once again, that is a matter of choice-you choose to do what you want.
Point: women have power over the male. That is a basic understanding of the hijab. Just as males can control their power, so can women. Your point that 'well, men dont have to cover themselves and women do' is valid, but obviously because men & womens' powers differ.


here you go: this is the full translation of the passage from the Quran:


24:30 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.


maybe your reading is coming from the oppression of women in the bible?

"And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (1 Corinthians 11:3-10).

I'm not out to bible bash here, because the christians are my brothers and sisters. But the west has a whole history of the oppression of females based on these foundations of christian doctrine. Patriarchy, unfortunately, still reigns, including the islamic states which administer their own reading of the Quran as 'fact'.
You can critique a culture but until you experience it, as have many migrants and travellers, you will not know about it.

Point: more muslims know about the west than the west about the muslims. Unfortunetly so many people are eating up the western mainstream view of the Hijab.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Im sorry but some of your sentences don't make sense. Moreover, you can't understand contemporary cultures using traditional anthropology. Its an ethnography which requires you to experience it. but since i'm guessing that you're male, and anglo, you would never do such a thing . lol


"neglect the fact that...one sex to cover their features"

Men don't have boobs (well some don't lol). They dont have distinctly beautiful features as women do. men have sexual desires which somewhat outweigh those of women. Moreover, men don't have the powers women do. In this way, women are very powerful in their ability to control and influence the male (why do you think those music videos with bitches and ho's are so popular?). Islam recognises this, that women have powers beyond the male. But controlling those powers is one of personal inclination. You can manipulate men (here i get many signifiers: trophy wives, prostitution, selling yourself for material wealth: women are also oppressed in the west- the only way some pop stars get ahead is by taking their clothes off eww jessica simpson). But once again, that is a matter of choice-you choose to do what you want.
Point: women have power over the male. That is a basic understanding of the hijab.


here you go: this is the full translation of the passage from the Quran:


24:30 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.
24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.


maybe your reading is coming from the oppression of women in the bible?

"And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (1 Corinthians 11:3-10).

I'm not out to bible bash here, because the christians are my brothers and sisters. But the west has a whole history of the oppression of females based on these foundations of christian doctrine. Patriarchy, unfortunately, still reigns, including the islamic states which administer their own reading of the Quran as 'fact'.
You can critique a culture but until you experience it, as have many migrants and travellers, you will not know about it.

Point: more muslims know about the west than the west about the muslims. Unfortunetly so many people are eating up the western mainstream view of the Hijab.

lolz, I stopped reading after the bit in bold, but I'm sure it's all that good. 10 comedy points (lol).

 

[Generator]

Point: more muslims know about the west than the west about the muslims. Unfortunetly so many people are eating up the western mainstream view of the Hijab.

Ummm, rightio.

Im sorry but some of your sentences don't make sense. Moreover, you can't understand contemporary cultures using traditional anthropology. Its an ethnography which requires you to experience it. but since i'm guessing that you're male, and anglo, you would never do such a thing . lol

Ah, I think that you are the one constructing sentences that do not make sense. What exactly was my interpretation of contemporary Australia using a traditonal anthropological construct? Why is that I, as a man, cannot express my disdain for the lack of respect for women and political and cultural diversity evident in today's Australia merely because I have not immersed myself within those particular social contexts?

 

[somechick]

lolz, I stopped reading after the bit in bold, but I'm sure it's all that good. 10 comedy points (lol).

i was trying to put it in the most layman terms possible. people dont read things if its not in their vernacular or not entertaining. My bad, do you want me to edit it out?

 

[ogmzergrush]

i was trying to put it in the most layman terms possible. people dont read things if its not in their vernacular or not entertaining. My bad, do you want me to edit it out?

No that's fine, I'm sure people reading it with an interest in engaging in debate will take your meaning clearly enough.

 

[somechick]

Ummm, rightio.



Ah, I think that you are the one constructing sentences that do not make sense. What exactly was my interpretation of contemporary Australia using a traditonal anthropological construct? Why is that I, as a man, cannot express my disdain for the lack of respect for women and political and cultural diversity evident in today's Australia merely because I have not immersed myself within those particular social contexts?

I meant your interpretation of islam, contemporary islamic cultures. and you would never wear a hijab because, obviously you're male, and anglo.

Can i ask why you did not reply to the rest of the post?

 

[Comrade nathan]

Prevention is different from accounting for others' behaviour

It is not prevention. Its a band aid protection.

Prevention would be to change gender relations and to form social ideas of how to view women.

So they are making a protection to account for other people's behaviour. Im guessing that when Islam was first forming to create new morals rather then change the gender structure, is much easier just put a cloth over the problem. So they could keep a similiar gender structure, but create morals that would keep women safe from sexual ideas.