the current english course is a waste of time, true or false (1 Viewer)

[Gimlian]

I don't suppose learning about photosynthesis and its waste products in Biology or finding out the equation of a tangent in 2u Maths or finding the locus of a point in 3u is really necessary as a life skill. Especially when you're gonna become say, an economist.

 

[slzybanana]

too many people are lured into 4u maths by the prospect of super crazy scaling, i have a friend who did 4u, he said he had to spend an entire weekend, like 7hrs a day to do the 4u maths worksheets because they were so hard

 

[ekirii]

you never know!

but at least you know that gives you options. now, what can you do with classical greek?

i suppose i could conjugate something for you... if you really really really really wanted to.

 

[watatank]

meh if it weren't for english you wouldn't be able to write properly. if english weren't compulsory heaps of people would just choose to do maths and science and get to uni without a clue on how to write.

 

[ekirii]

i think the only reason i'm still on this topic is because it's not sleeping yet.

seriously bored.

and procrastinating (isnt that a fantastic word to describe our generation?) about english extension exam.

@ watatank, i think it was aimed at the english course not english in general. i suppose our english course can be superfluous to daily life but i think i'll stop dissing it coz it ranks right up there for me in fave subjects.

cheers ppl.

 

[Forbidden.]

You will feel better if you try to enjoy your text. I know... HSC English is gay

True.

Eh, who gives a shit. we have to do what we have to do, so suck it up and take it like a man.
























(that is in the ass, without protection.)

It's rough but I held my stance.

 

[watatank]

@ watatank, i think it was aimed at the english course not english in general. i suppose our english course can be superfluous to daily life but i think i'll stop dissing it coz it ranks right up there for me in fave subjects.

cheers ppl.

i know what they meant. i hated english with a passion but i still think its important and necessary (even in its current form) and should count to the uai because generally speaking, people are bad enough at writing/communicating as it is.

 

[iEdd]

I don't think 'english' is the right name for the subject. 'Literature studies' would be more like it. I despise the fact people are rewarded for waffling on and overanalysing the crap out of anything that is mentioned, adding significance to it because it must be symbolic. Clearly the composer was trying to convey how he felt as a child. Bullshit. Read some interviews with poets and the like and you'll find that most say they've just written what they have seen. While I agree some of these 'techniques' are relevant, I disagree that everything is one, as well as the fact that so much importance is placed on this glorified bookclub.
Furthermore, to say that overanalysing texts helps us learn to READ as a life skill is like saying maths should be compulsory so we can learn to COUNT. These simple life skills are ones we already have by the time we are 15 (hopefully ).
I agree that writing is an important skill. Essay writing is a good thing to do too. Writing about techniques for 2 years is a complete waste of time, because all you learn is what sort of bull crap the markers like, whether or not you feel that way is irrelevant and you may as well be on drugs because you are as far away from the real world as a subject gets.

 

[slzybanana]

No one is saying that overanalysing a text helps us to read. It's about being able to look at things from multiple perspectives and then arguing your view. In poetry, just because you see it differently fromt he poet's original intention doesn't mean it's wrong, as long as you can put up a good enough argument. As for marking, a lot of teachers out there probably don't give a shit about what they read and will mark you down if you don't regurgitate the information they've fed you, but a good english teacher will mark your work depending on how well you've been able to argue your answer.

 

[Raaaaaay]

meh if it weren't for english you wouldn't be able to write properly. if english weren't compulsory heaps of people would just choose to do maths and science and get to uni without a clue on how to write.

Negative, I find that I was able to write quite fluently by the time I started Year 7, I knew the structure of how to write an essay or extended response and so did pretty much all of my peers. I think heaps of people probably would have chosen maths and science due to the fact that they see how english is quite useless later in life, well at least the advanced course of it in senior english.

I mean honestly when in life would deconstructing shakespere and making up quotes that you forgot from some novell going to help you in life or even tertiary studies? But as you can probably tell my view is quite bias in this topic so =P

but a good english teacher will mark your work depending on how well you've been able to argue your answer.

And how many of those exist?

Mine I will quote will literrly "Tap dance on my head" if I dont regurgitate the information he has given us pretty much just writing out a memorised essay from the same quotes i.e, Not exactly learning much just remembering the same lines and words and just spitting them back out, or making up the most elaborate crap which symbolises a metaphor and making up some quote to go with it without having any clue on what your writing about, somehow resulting in a big fat tick next to it.

 

[mjgeneral]

I absolutely agree with you. Honestly, don't argue with the "you wouldn't be able to write", so you people are telling me that you couldn't write in yr7-10? The top student in our school (which is selective) got 60/60 for his 3unit english, and he's a state speaker. He's dropping extension english and picking up 4u Maths. His reason? "English is useless". In selectie schools, advanced english his compulsory, and its just riduculous. All of you who support English, I want you to answer this question:

Is it fair for a student to have his UAI pulled down because he couldn't understand what Shakespeare was talking about and he could not deconstruct poetry?

They should be teaching us grammar and spelling, because a lot of tertiary students have trouble in that, instead of the crap were getting now eg analysing films. Did you that around half of the techniques we observe were actually done by accident (directors say this when people bombard them about the techniques they used)

I do 4unit maths and my subjects are all science, so although I can be biased, I come from a very logical point of view. Not to mention, people should really stop thinking maths is just "apply the formula". In yr10, maybe that was it, but in 3u onwards, the people who think that will perform poorly due to their lack of understanding. Doing that in 4unit is just impossible, and from my point of view, i rekon that requires a higher level of thinking. There is no such thing as a prodigy in english (or at least i have never heard of one), but there are prodigies in mathematics and music, because THEY are subjects that require higher level minds when it comes to thinking and understanding.
__________________
2008 HSC Target UAI 95+
Subjects:
Maths 3&4 unit (accel 2unit in 07)
Chemistry
English Advanced
Physics
Cosmology (distinction course)

 

[brycycle]

i think they should just have a english one lower than standard. in which they dont go so far into all this anaylising crap

 

[mjgeneral]

Thats impractical, the scaling implications are just too big to even be considered. ESL already scales better than standard, so a lower version is detrimental to the UAI

 

[eddy11]

i agree with mjgeneral, it is unfair for those of us who are maths and science based. For thoses people who argue that english brings on a higher order of thinking, im fairly sure maths can do that to. Most subjects that involve trying to manipulate and make meaning of either numbers or words do create a higher order of thinking.

I would love to learn how to write a good essay and grammar, which is one intention of the course, but to much time is spent friggin around with unintentional techniques and effect.

A higher oreder of thinking is essential so why not make maths compulsory.

Answer, because many people aren't mathematically minded and would therefore struggle and be disadvantaged.

In response to that i say that many people aren't literarily minded (like me) and we are disadvantaged. Whoever makes these decisions, to me seems like a literarily minded person. But why cant they let us choose not to english. Why not make EITHER maths or english compulsory, higher order of thinking achieved and more people happy.

 

[Raaaaaay]

In response to that i say that many people aren't literarily minded (like me) and we are disadvantaged. Whoever makes these decisions, to me seems like a literarily minded person. But why cant they let us choose not to english. Why not make EITHER maths or english compulsory, higher order of thinking achieved and more people happy.

People who arent as gifted in Mathematical and calculating aspects of subjects are given a way out in the HSC but not choosing to do maths. However its different for those who dont have, I will put this in my honest opinion - An ability to Make up random elaborate techniques and make up as much bullshit as they can to seem to fool the marker into making some sort of sense in which einstein him self probably could not piece togeather, aren't given the same oportunity as the others.

This might be the reason behind it, evidently John Howards leaving marks were all English based and haveing a big fail in GENERAL Mathematics. (Source:http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/09/1076175083880.html)
This politically could be the reason however honestly I just think their trying to reduce the number of asians in Uni's because UNSW is too full of them

 

[slzybanana]

The process of maths is like a program in a computer. It follows a rigid, set process for us to follow, i.e the formulas. In maths, it's 1 set formula (or a few more depending on the question) which leads you to only ONE answer or ONE set of answers. Everyone has to get the same answer and it leaves no room for any other thought. Maths is a good subject, and in many career fields it can be argued that it is indeed more useful than english, i.e utilising maths in science, engineering, space etc. However, it isn't fair to say that our current english course if useless. As I said before, the current english course we undertake teaches us to look at things from multiple perspectives, argue our views and express ourselves at a higher level. Poems, plays, films are not just 'a big load of bullshit crammed down our throats by the DoE'. It is a form of self expression, it is an art. Just like paintings convey meanings and messages from the artist. It's all culture. If people stopped painting, stopped making films, never wrote a poem again, i'm sure alot of you would think 'great! i dont have to put up with this endless bullshit anymore', but in truth that would leave the world rather dull and cultureless.

@mjgeneral
The question at hand here isn't 'Should english be compulsory?' but 'Is english a waste of time?' I'm not quite sure if english should be compulsory, but it is definitely NOT a complete waste of time. English immerses us in the culture. If I were to compare maths to english i would have to say maths is like the black and white outlines of a painting and english is the colour added to it. Both are good subjects, for you can't have a painting with just blotches of colour (though there was 1 painting that was just a blue canvas at the nsw art gallery) and at the same time a colourless painting is lifeless.

For those doing advanced eng, if you can't put up with the shakespeare, poetry etc. drop down to standard english and to those who go to schools where advanced is compulsory (and i know there are schools like that), bad luck. you'll just have to put up with it.

 

[eflatmajor]

A lot of the arguements made here about english not only having an exact answer like maths is why i find it annoying. The mark a person recieves would be based on the marker. If we were to make a creative writing peice, any symbolisms or metaphors and what not we try to put in there would probably not be picked up or maybe some idiot writing a story randomly may put in something not meant to be a symbolism or any literary technique for that matter, but it is taken as one. One markers might be read someones analysis from a different perspective to another marker.

 

[mjgeneral]

That is why i dislike english, the subjectiveness is just too intense and unequitable. Let's face it, the more favoured students seem to always get the high marks. And even they admit that their name on the paper is worth at least 80% of the given marks =S Standard english is such a turn off in terms of scaling. And the thing is, students don't really understand, so that's why its a waste of time. If the majority of the population actually understood, then maybe its useful, but in reality, it's not whats happening. Like our said, even our school dux thinks its completely useless. And also i said before, most of the techniques in films are actually done accidently, ive read questions directed at directors before. And im not saying to completely eradicate english (although that would be nice), but a more reasonable method would be just to make it an elective, so that way, the people who like poems can go and do it =S why make everybody else suffer? A lot of students in the HSC get their good marks in english but forms of cramming, so what point is that?? I think mathematics promotes thinking just as well as English. I see it as a form of art. You cannot create equations such as E=mc² without creativity. Its more open than what thick-minded high schoolers think. Just that in the 2u courses we only apply the formula and we dont appreciate the applications of it. The world would still have shakespeare and poetry for the ones who want to pursue it, but what % of us will need 2u advanced English?? The world needs people gifted in areas like medicine and engineering, the world simply cannot exist without it, wheras basic english in everyday life is already more than whats required. I'll english the day it sends a man to the moon or when it cures any form of disease.

 

[slzybanana]

Wow...I'm actually a little saddened by what I'm hearing here. You all seem to be convinced that the current english course is a waste of time because of the teachers and the marks. That's a little sad. School is supposed to be about learning interesting, useful and enjoyable things, but the current education system has really made you all forget about that, but i don't blame you. Right now, you're all judging a subject based on whether it will benefit UAI or not. People always tell you, 'The HSC isn't the end of the world, just because you do bad.' Well it would seem thats exactly what it's made out to be. If you screw up the HSC, you can't get into good unis, you can't do the courses you want and you won't get a degree and hence you won't get anywhere in life. In truth, that's really what the current education system displays it as.

English. Sure, you may have shit teachers, sure, they feed you shit and make you regurgitate it out, sure they're biased, they give you crap marks, but that DOES NOT make what we're learning right now a waste of time. You guys are thinking 'i hate english, i get shit marks in it and others unfairly get higher marks because they're teacher's pets or they're good at making up bullshit', but you're really forgetting the beauty of the subject. All this bullshit with the UAI and HSC, it's really destroyed the enjoyment of english in so many people. People have grown to hate the subject just because of shit tests and shit marks and shit teachers. You can't judge whether the subject is a waste of time or not based on marks. It's completely irrelevant. It's all the concepts, the meanings, the interpretations, the THINKING. This stuff doesn't just end with the HSC and high school, the thought process, all of it, it affects our lives in the future. How we think, how we express ourselves, how we articulate our thoughts, it's all part of english. If we put marks and stuff aside, one might actually be able to enjoy poetry, but with marks in consideration, the first thought that comes to mind is 'Argh I hate poetry, it's so hard and I get low marks in it'. It makes it so hard for some people to see the goodness in the subject, the beauty of it and that's why it's so sad. Only reading all these posts and arguments now, have made me see this. The root of the problem lies with the education system. There is WAY too much emphasis on the UAI and it's made to be worth WAY too much in which direction our lives go.

 

[mjgeneral]

I would stand by my view regardless of my marks in English. I absolutely agree on the goals of English: to expand our way of thinking, but my main point is, its useless because its NOT whats happening, if it were, then by all means make it compulsory, but the truth is, its NOT! Why should we waste so much of our life learning about something we couldnt possibly care less about? And high school isn't about the UAI, we know that, and like you said its about enjoying stuff u like, ok then, so who here enjoys english lessons? Marks arent my concern, poetry to me is just a load of crap some sad poet wrote. "The truly happy people are ones that understand poetry" - TS Eliot. Yet why are his poems so pessimistic? To b honest, i would find it rather utopic if poetry was burnt. And also, like you say, we do subjects we like, which we think might help us, ones we enjoy. If we did work in high school merely for the fun of it, its basically primary school - its free daycare centre. So tell me, what happens in university then? we walk in empty handed and fail every course they offer?