The hoo-hah surrounding investment banking (3 Viewers)

[juzmister]

Yeh IBs teach you everything you need to know...They usually have a 3 month intensive training course and pick the best in the course.

 

[§eraphim]

Go the Quants!!!

 

[frinkanator]

hahaha it's funny watching the regular ego-centric Bos'ers never fail in hanging some good shite on IB's. it still smells like a wannabe Pwc boardroom.

instead of seeming like a bunch of little-boy assuming scaremongers you yourselves get someone on here with actual IB experience and success to post their views. and I mean those with veteran finesse and battlescars who thrive upon what they do. not spoonfed grads, cadets or the old guy that corporate daddy knows.

I draw your attention to the IT boom.

It doesn't seem too farfetched to me that investment banking could follow this model. There is a great demand at the current time for investment bankers, but in 10 years time will there still be this demand? Or will there be an excess of qualified investment bankers faced with limited job opportunity?

there is no comparison to the IT bubble because the financial services sector is heavily regulated with the big firms conducting most of the IB services. they are lean and efficient and the personnel they need are minimal. they are just doing well now because of the strong economy. and that usually translates into bigger bonuses for the select few.
the tech boom happened because of the rise and newness of the internet, companies were popping out of nowhere with investment money flowing straight into them, with no real substance or sustainable growth. IT was the flavour of the month and everyone wanted some piece of the action.

I guess the bottom line is Investment banking is more a lifestyle than a job.

that could possibly be the most smartest obvservation you've made on this board.

Is it just me or do alot of people who dream of IB not realise that whilst there may be some success stories for a few; there are also people who burn out very quickly and end up becoming unemployed for considerable lengths of time. Sure this is possibly just another hypothetical,

nice scare tactics. those who get burnt out and eventually wuss out shouldn't have been there in the first place. the problem is that you treat working at an IB like an accounting big 4 job. the trading and risk m'ment arms of IB especially contain jobs which require a certain mindset and psychology to stay alive. moreso during tougher economic conditions.

Personally, I don't think an extra 30-40k on what I'm earning would make me wan't to sacrifice my personal life/weekends/nights. It's not worth it to me. (Assuming I was "good" enough to be an IB'er in the first place).

one thing for sure is, if you are just whining about the could be's and should be's then it's apparent you wouldn't belong. and if you don't have heart and mindset for it in connection to your life goals then you wouldn't last long. the intrinsic value of the higher pay is nothing compared to the business relationships and personal investment potential. the long work hours of a few years of your life is a small price to pay for financial freedom for the rest of your life. you either see this or don't.
also, you make it out to seem like you're stuck at an IB job until you're 55 and burnt out dead. it's actualy quite the opposite. you'd be more likely to retire early and live off investing/trading in the many markets you were exposed to, or starting your own firm and making the real moolah.

because many here are heavily biased towards cadets and uni students, it seems apparent that being a uni nerd at a top uni with top marks, "experience" during vacations and extra curricular activities are the sole determinants into getting into IB. while it may pertain to flawless, elite grads, it is only limited to graduate positions. transferring from lower level firms is of no lesser value. the extra experience would be a big plus.

if you're seeing from a viewpoint of breaking it all down to how much you're getting per hour at IB, etc and coming to the conclusion that fixing toilets is more feasible then you obviously aren't made for it. those who thrive for sheer financial success and wealth will get it, whatever the path.


there's more security in beloved accounting anyway. the corporate hiney would taste better I assume. seremify007 you can vouch for that

but what would I know, I just 'trade' mum and dads shares and read the paper don't I?

Cheers.

 

[Meads]

hahaha it's funny watching a regular ego-centric tosser.

 

[Minai]

It's not everyone's ideal lifestyle to be working 18 hour days in their 20's to set themselves up for early retirement. Each to their own.

 

[seremify007]

nice scare tactics. those who get burnt out and eventually wuss out shouldn't have been there in the first place. the problem is that you treat working at an IB like an accounting big 4 job. the trading and risk m'ment arms of IB especially contain jobs which require a certain mindset and psychology to stay alive. moreso during tougher economic conditions.

Do you think everybody who gets a job in IB makes it past the 1 year anniversary? Yes they shouldn't have been there in the first place, but not everyone can predict how much change in lifestyle is to be expected from any job.

I'm curious to hear you elaborate on the "treat working at an IB like an accounting big 4 job." I'm not quite following you here so please explain?

but what would I know, I just 'trade' mum and dads shares and read the paper don't I?

Thought I recognised your username from before... so have you got a job yet or do you still spend your time talking up something you have never actually experienced?

If I recall correctly, you're the equivilent of a Ferrari fan who bags everyone out for driving "inferior" cars yet has never driven a Ferrari, let alone owned one.

 

[mr_shittles]

can u get into IB with just a commerce degree instead of comm/law.

Yes, you can. However, you will need relevant industry experience or an honours year to go with your degree.

I have asked that question to a couple of HR people from different investment banks and that's where I got my answer to your question from.

 

[mr_shittles]

one thing for sure is, if you are just whining about the could be's and should be's then it's apparent you wouldn't belong. and if you don't have heart and mindset for it in connection to your life goals then you wouldn't last long.

I don't think he was whining, I think he was just providing an honest opinion, unlike the some of the other bits of advice floating around on this forum.

 

[mr_shittles]

I draw your attention to the IT boom. There was once a time when the info tech industry was booming. Employers were paying large amounts of money to recruit graduates, offering large salaries and extra benefits. With this boom came a stampede of undergrads heading into IT courses at uni. The choice to do so for some was incredibly profitable. However as time passed, the demand for IT staff decreased, leaving thousands of qualified IT staff without jobs, faced with bills to pay and an insecure future.

It doesn't seem too farfetched to me that investment banking could follow this model. There is a great demand at the current time for investment bankers, but in 10 years time will there still be this demand? Or will there be an excess of qualified investment bankers faced with limited job opportunity?

Well, I do agree with you that investment banking is booming, but companring an investment banking boom to the recent IT boom is incorrect. Investment banking booms are probaly more comparable to property booms or sharemarket booms. They are cyclical, and not one-off. When the market is not booming, the industry will not disappear overnight.

When the economy is strong, corporate profits swell the coffers of the successul companies around the world. So because they have so much cash sloshing around, they are able to maintain higher payouts to shareholders and are still left with sufficient free cashflows to finance expansion. Mergers and acquisitions often present a valuable opportunity for businesses to expand and so many managers take advantage of the favourable conditions to acquire and divest businesses. This creates work for investment bankers.

So what can trigger a contraction in investment banking? Lower corporate profits. But as frikanator noted investment banks are "lean and efficient and the personnel they need are minimal. they are just doing well now because of the strong economy. " So the moment transaction volume declines, those banks that haven't been runnig lean operations are forced to cut staff. A good indicator of how lean a bank's operations are is revenue per banker or deals per banker.

 

[seremify007]

Just as a question related to IB... when is an individual considered a "Banker"? As in, at what stage in their career do they progress from being just a intern/grad to the stage where they can call themselves that title. I wonder if it's the equivilent of say.. a Partner or an Accountant? Eg. Accounting KPIs include "Revenue per partner" and "Revenue per practice staff"- so which one is "Banker" more similar to?

 

[mr_shittles]

Just as a question related to IB... when is an individual considered a "Banker"? As in, at what stage in their career do they progress from being just a intern/grad to the stage where they can call themselves that title. I wonder if it's the equivilent of say.. a Partner or an Accountant? Eg. Accounting KPIs include "Revenue per partner" and "Revenue per practice staff"- so which one is "Banker" more similar to?

No, there's no rule on who can or can't call themselves a "banker", just like there is no rule on who can call themselves an "accountant." For titles like CA/FCA, ASA/CPA/FCPA, CFA/FCA, you need need to meet membership requirements.

 

[mr_shittles]

Is it just me or do alot of people who dream of IB not realise that whilst there may be some success stories for a few; there are also people who burn out very quickly and end up becoming unemployed for considerable lengths of time.

Well, from what I gather, nothing can be farther from the truth. Investment bankers that burn out go somewhere else, and yes there are some that burn out, but the fact that they "end up becoming unemployed for considerable lengths of time"is probably somewhat misleading.

Many ex-investment bankers that are "unemployed" are actually "retired." Beleive it or not seremify, even after another 50 years of loyal service for the partners of PwC, there will come a point at which you say "f^ck it, i've worked hard, i've made my money, i'm putting my feet up." And then, by what I can gather of your definition of unemeployed, you too will join the list.

I think the ABS defines unemployed as those people that are not employed but actively seeking work. So clearly, they need to change that definition.

 

[mr_shittles]

also, you make it out to seem like you're stuck at an IB job until you're 55 and burnt out dead. it's actualy quite the opposite. you'd be more likely to retire early and live off investing/trading in the many markets you were exposed to, or starting your own firm and making the real moolah.

That's not quite the same as being unemployed, now is it?

 

[frinkanator]

Do you think everybody who gets a job in IB makes it past the 1 year anniversary? Yes they shouldn't have been there in the first place, but not everyone can predict how much change in lifestyle is to be expected from any job.

those who didn't take the effort in researching their job or getting as much experience as possible should be culled anyway.

I'm curious to hear you elaborate on the "treat working at an IB like an accounting big 4 job." I'm not quite following you here so please explain?

you just answered your own question. i meant it can be quite cutthroat in corporate IB which requires a different psychology to be there. whereas things can be more complacent and safe at a big 4 job. - I'm merely defending against your stance of putting IB in a negative light. many pro-accountants on this board bag it without knowing the drive behind those there. then there's the "oooh I think I'm top with my corporate cadetship etc so I should be most able to comment on IB" snobby sentiment... which I explained in a past thread.

big heads who cream their way through uni academia with finance subjects think they can give IB a crack, burn out. brains and high marks alone don't define success in your job.

Thought I recognised your username from before... so have you got a job yet or do you still spend your time talking up something you have never actually experienced?

If I recall correctly, you're the equivilent of a Ferrari fan who bags everyone out for driving "inferior" cars yet has never driven a Ferrari, let alone owned one.

lol. I like your car analogy. Well If you define "a job" as a holiday cadet who does the shredding and photocopying or sucking up to recruitment management in corporate land by "helping out", then no. In my spare time besides uni, I'm what they call a 'private trader'- and it's quite rare for a young guy. I know you and the rest label me as some wannabe who lives vicariously through the fin review watching dad buy shares or whatever, but in your ignorance you obviously have no clue of what it entails. I really don't want to get into explaining myself again, coz you'll just take it as another spin on how great I am. If I must say, it's the private traders who beat the corporate funds in returns time and time again. They put in their blood and sweat through experience and risk, in refining their trading systems. I'm not saying I'm some market whiz. It's not the amount of returns or wins, but rather your psychology and risk management in winning/losing. I highly doubt you'd understand it without experiencing it anyway. Perhaps you should get some real opinions on here from those who have become successful in the trading community, instead of basing all your world around uni textbooks and anecdotes.

while suiting up in getting coffee for some dudes in a corporate giant looks great on paper, I place more value in real world experience through my trading experiences. contrary to what you may think real world experience is, it doesn't necessarily mean spending summer or uni off days being a big 4 pet. as you'd probably know, corporations don't necessarily hire those with a Bcom who've sucked up. if you can prove to be suited to the environment, due to your other achievements they can teach anyone the skills.

I know many of you will just take all that as some ego-driven bullshit by someone whose all talk. I on the other hand, laugh at your preppy attitudes coz you obviously have no clue... you'd wish to be left in your ignorance anyway.

Cheers.

 

[turtleface]

frinkanator you claim to post in response to people posting crap about investment banking, but a lot of what you say about accounting is just what stereotypical wannabe bankers say.

I've considered IB a lot as a potential future career. I like the big 4 life better. I'll explain why.

Theres a good mix between hours and money. Don't let people fool you into thinking accounting is 9-5 and safe. A lot work long hours on big jobs. I know of people who are at clients up to 11pm as well as both weekend days (thankfully only for a few weeks), or spend 3 months going up to 8pm every night.
As for safe, sure you can cruise, but you will be rewarded with shit performance reviews and a low ranking in your remuneration band, meaning shit salary for your level.

Sure 11pm is a bitch, but at least its only for a few weeks every year, and not up to 4am for half the year like banking is

Also, big 4 firms have a very collegial (spelling?) atmosphere. Its like being at Uni again. At my firm, about 80% or so are in their 20's, so you're working with people your age and similar backgrounds, and it just makes it more enjoyable. Plus most of these 20 somethings are women. I can't say the same thing about IBs. You'll have maybe another 10 people around your age in your division? Compared to more than 200 in Big 4?

Sure you'll eventually hit your mid to high 30s but by that time hopefully you're a partner or have moved off to commerce/industry and made Financial Controller or CFO/Finance Director.

Also, though audit may be boring, I'd rather do something crap with people I enjoy working with, rather than interacting with my computer and racing people with the mouse clicks to make some crappy arbitrage profit or something. But thats just me. If you like your Trading, or if you want to be a banker go ahead just don't bag accounting whilst you promote whatever you want to do like others have
"allegedly" bagged investment banking.

 

[seremify007]

you just answered your own question. i meant it can be quite cutthroat in corporate IB which requires a different psychology to be there. whereas things can be more complacent and safe at a big 4 job. - I'm merely defending against your stance of putting IB in a negative light. many pro-accountants on this board bag it without knowing the drive behind those there. then there's the "oooh I think I'm top with my corporate cadetship etc so I should be most able to comment on IB" snobby sentiment... which I explained in a past thread.

I'm not sure what other people here think of my posts but I don't think I was 'bagging' out IB.. just merely pointing out that it is very overglorified as the only career worth shooting for in the Commerce field. This however contrasts considerably with your repeated attacks on Big4 audit.

lol. I like your car analogy. Well If you define "a job" as a holiday cadet who does the shredding and photocopying or sucking up to recruitment management in corporate land by "helping out", then no.

1. I'm still not quite sure where you keep getting this 'holiday' concept from... you seemed to have a problem with understanding what full time work means. Maybe you should go back and read through your other thread again?

2. This raises an interesting comparison. You tell myself and many of the other Big4 people on BoS who actually have to audit those individual IB funds that we know nothing about IB yet we 'bag it' out... and then in an almost hypocratic fashion, you dish it out on cadetships when you haven't had a day's experience in the industry.

3. Finally, no matter what spin you attempt to put on your words; it doesn't change the fact you haven't got a job. No, I'm not saying you're unemployed (as mr_shittles has pointed out with the correct definition). I'm saying simply- you haven't got a job. I thought maybe things might've changed since the last time you went on a posting spree on BoS, but then you've confirmed you haven't broken your trend.

In my spare time besides uni, I'm what they call a 'private trader'- and it's quite rare for a young guy. I know you and the rest label me as some wannabe who lives vicariously through the fin review watching dad buy shares or whatever, but in your ignorance you obviously have no clue of what it entails. I really don't want to get into explaining myself again, coz you'll just take it as another spin on how great I am. If I must say, it's the private traders who beat the corporate funds in returns time and time again. They put in their blood and sweat through experience and risk, in refining their trading systems. I'm not saying I'm some market whiz. It's not the amount of returns or wins, but rather your psychology and risk management in winning/losing.

I highly doubt you'd understand it without experiencing it anyway. Perhaps you should get some real opinions on here from those who have become successful in the trading community, instead of basing all your world around uni textbooks and anecdotes.

while suiting up in getting coffee for some dudes in a corporate giant looks great on paper, I place more value in real world experience through my trading experiences. contrary to what you may think real world experience is, it doesn't necessarily mean spending summer or uni off days being a big 4 pet. as you'd probably know, corporations don't necessarily hire those with a Bcom who've sucked up. if you can prove to be suited to the environment, due to your other achievements they can teach anyone the skills.

I know many of you will just take all that as some ego-driven bullshit by someone whose all talk. I on the other hand, laugh at your preppy attitudes coz you obviously have no clue... you'd wish to be left in your ignorance anyway.

Hmm, based on everything you've said since you know the IB job market so well, and you've got all the right attitudes, skills and experience which you know are in such high demand... I'd imagine you should get the first job you apply for? So, to save us the trouble of having to hear you brag (yet again) about your future job, why don't you tell us where you aspire to work for the most- or at least once you graduate... and then we'll look for you on the payroll whilst we do our "preppy" audits?

 

[seremify007]

Well, from what I gather, nothing can be farther from the truth. Investment bankers that burn out go somewhere else, and yes there are some that burn out, but the fact that they "end up becoming unemployed for considerable lengths of time"is probably somewhat misleading.

Well I guess I don't know much about the overall IBers but I'm merely basing this on what I noticed in family friends who've come/gone.

I think the ABS defines unemployed as those people that are not employed but actively seeking work. So clearly, they need to change that definition.

Fair call. I was using the more social (rather than technical) definition of the term.

Either way though, you do raise a fair point that my comment could be taken as misleading. Doesn't really change the heart of my message which whilst not intending as 'scare-tactics', it's mere commentary on the overglorification of the IB lifestyle. A lot of people can say they're capable of putting in the hours; but when the time comes... will they?

 

[seremify007]

Also, though audit may be boring, I'd rather do something crap with people I enjoy working with, rather than interacting with my computer and racing people with the mouse clicks to make some crappy arbitrage profit or something. But thats just me. If you like your Trading, or if you want to be a banker go ahead just don't bag accounting whilst you promote whatever you want to do like others have
"allegedly" bagged investment banking.

Btw I agree with pretty much everything you said. THe work itself is probably not going to win any awards for exciting, but if you challenge yourself, there are definitely ways where you can differentiate yourselves from the rest by thinking creatively. Most importantly though as you mentioned, it's the people who make our job interesting. Not everyone enjoys travelling, meeting new people all the time, etc... but I enjoy it. As lame as it sounds, I do enjoy going to new places all the time and finding good places to eat- but not eating there so often that I get sick of it.

 

[frinkanator]

Also, though audit may be boring, I'd rather do something crap with people I enjoy working with, rather than interacting with my computer and racing people with the mouse clicks to make some crappy arbitrage profit or something. But thats just me. If you like your Trading, or if you want to be a banker go ahead just don't bag accounting whilst you promote whatever you want to do like others have
"allegedly" bagged investment banking.

you limit your pickups to chicks in the office? lol. but what would happen to those grand performance reviews you talk about, when all you want to do is bang the blonde in the boardroom? you make corp audit sound like 'the office' series lol. Personally I think the title of 'investment banker' who earns XXXXX more amount that everyone else, sounds more attractive than bland old 'auditor'. the ladies want more than the proverbial slap on the ass in the office you know.

seriously like i said if you just going to worry about the cosmetics in a corp you wouldn't belong in IB. I highly doubt your assumed stats on IBs anyway. there are different divisions in IB, and they each have different workloads and timescales. If you say IB is all about staring at the computer screen watching the market move while Big 4 is all about having a gay old time pushing audit papers in a uni-like atmosphere with more hot chicks then I'd have to ask myself who is doing the bagging, spinning and stereotyping.
a layman would say it's all the bloody same... a job stuck in a cubicle pushing papers and dealing with office politics all day. Personally I like to think way ahead of the cubicle job, and how to use it to make it easier on myself later.

Cheers.

 

[frinkanator]

I'm not sure what other people here think of my posts but I don't think I was 'bagging' out IB.. just merely pointing out that it is very overglorified as the only career worth shooting for in the Commerce field.

who is overglorifying IB by the way, besides me? this place is at least 90% pro-audit Bcom'ers mostly in USyd/UNSW/Mac in Sydney - unbiased? no way?!
The trend here is someone posts some claim on IB like an absurd high salary and then the rest jump on the anti-IB bandwagon chanting slogans of absolute shite conditions, and lack of 'pussy'. and the tone you set seems like you know what you're talking about. tall poppies??

This however contrasts considerably with your repeated attacks on Big4 audit.

I may have a tad bias against audit. but i certainly have no inherent hate against audit - they are part of the whole stakeholder system. without the key players it would lose stability. the thrust of my argument is about how cadets/grads like you can judge against others of your age who aren't like you.

1. I'm still not quite sure where you keep getting this 'holiday' concept from... you seemed to have a problem with understanding what full time work means. Maybe you should go back and read through your other thread again?
2. This raises an interesting comparison. You tell myself and many of the other Big4 people on BoS who actually have to audit those individual IB funds that we know nothing about IB yet we 'bag it' out... and then in an almost hypocratic fashion, you dish it out on cadetships when you haven't had a day's experience in the industry.

you know exactly what I'm talking about. just because you do a somewhat more of a qualified job in recruitment doesn't mean you're in control of jack. Do you actually believe you are taking active part in the profit generating of the corporation? at most you're learning how the system operates and have good 'relationships' with management, perhaps with other employees. but please... get off your high horse. remember, outside of the suits and cocktails you're still a uni student that lives at home supported by mummy and daddy.

3. Finally, no matter what spin you attempt to put on your words; it doesn't change the fact you haven't got a job. No, I'm not saying you're unemployed (as mr_shittles has pointed out with the correct definition). I'm saying simply- you haven't got a job. I thought maybe things might've changed since the last time you went on a posting spree on BoS, but then you've confirmed you haven't broken your trend.

there it is again, the condecending tone against some fool who hasn't had the 'corporate experience'. Yes, i'm not unemployed. full time students are never unemployed. let alone part of the work force. tell me what the hell is a 'job' to you anyway? licking balls at big 4? working at woolies stocking shelves?

Hmm, based on everything you've said since you know the IB job market so well, and you've got all the right attitudes, skills and experience which you know are in such high demand... I'd imagine you should get the first job you apply for? So, to save us the trouble of having to hear you brag (yet again) about your future job, why don't you tell us where you aspire to work for the most- or at least once you graduate... and then we'll look for you on the payroll whilst we do our "preppy" audits?

errr yeah I did say I'm that good that I'll get into any job I can. [sarcasm/] can you tell me exactly where I bragged about my future job? all I did was outline what I do as a private trader and hint at what it involves. but you and others take it like I'm bragging. there's my point again- just because there are no corporate letterheads supporting what I do, anything I say about my activities is worthless bragging.
Why do you want to know where I wish to work anyway? So you can dob me, the ego-driven ponce, into those corps who plans to destroy the big 4's of this world? Isn't it quite apparent that I support IB? so I suggest you alert as many of those corps as you can that I'm coming!

So, since you know all about corps and my inferior situation trading 'my parents shares' - I want you to outline exactly what you and other cadets do at the corps, outline what you do is so groundbreaking and why you believe it surpasses any experience I and others receive in trading the various markets and risking their own livelihoods.

Cheers.