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Update me on VSU (2 Viewers)

Phanatical

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I don't see why Con students should subsidise sports - especially since sports students don't subsidise Con students. Maybe it's just because i'm a Musician, but I believe that we should ALL be working to benefit ALL students. Not half of us working to benefit the other half. That's the problem I have with the Union and SRC, and it definitely applies to Sports.

Fact is though, that it IS unfair. Our student organisations spend almost 300 times as much money on sports than on arts, and then they turn around and criticise us for spending too much money on music.
 
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walrusbear

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Phanatical said:
What's wrong with my stance? I'm a music student - SU Sport spent a grand total of $0 on the Conservatorium and its students last year. As well as the fact that only about 1/10th (at most) of Con students use ANY SU Sport facilities on main campus, there are NO sports scholarships held by students in my faculty.

It's a lot of money that Conservatorium students are forced to hand over - especially since there is no equivalent Music fund. The Union attempts to provide for the Arts, but total expenditure on Music students was essentially 50c per undergraduate student.

$144 for Sports.
50c for Music.

Brilliant.
perhaps there is an imbalance in the fee distribution, doesn't mean sport shouldn't be funded
i don't play uni sport or am involved in uni music but i don't mind paying for both
they're both important for university culture
 

walrusbear

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Not-That-Bright said:
We are a very sports oriented society it would seem.... look at the young australians of the year / australians of the year.
yeah this country is crazy for the sport
it gets annoying sometimes
 

Phanatical

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I think sports should be funded through the Clubs and Societies programme of the Union. One board of directors instead of two. One general manager instead of two. Greater opportunity for students to specify whether they want their money to go to sports or arts.

Less bureaucracy leads to less expenditure and greater accountability, and controlling both Sports and Arts through the one organisation introduces a new assumption that both are equally valuable to the student community. As it is, Arts makes up a tiny part of the Union's portfolio, but Sports has its own dedicated organisation. This represents an inherant bias towards Sports funding that is not representative of the interests of the students funding the organisations.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Even if that is the reason why he doesn't like the sport fee, shouldn't we at least hear him out on his argument? Walrusbear did... and I agree with him, sport should be funded, but there is a huge imbalance in fee distributions.

Sport fees should go but the university should continue to support fringe dwelling music being a very noisy minorty
I haven't read his articles, if he wants the sports fee to go to music instead that is equally as stupid.

Less bureaucracy leads to less expenditure and greater accountability.
Yes but generally smaller government is achieved through privitisation, which doesn't necessarily lead to greater accountability. At least in nationalised industries there is a government minister who is accountable to the electorate. Privatised firms only have to account to their boardrooms and shareholders, who are only a small proportion of their users.
 
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walrusbear

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Asquithian said:
What I meant was it didnt look like he has an interest in sport. That was, in my opinion, the reason why he doesnt like the sport fee.

Read his articles. He fails to apply his own logic to his own stance on very many issues. He is very good at being critical. But never looks inward. The no sport fee is a super one. Sport fees should go but the university should continue to support fringe dwelling music ie a very noisy minorty (credit to Howard for that saying)...
also, for someone pretending to be a voice of reason in this whole thing his coverage of the rally was sensationalised crap!
do you hear me phan!! it sucked!
rewrite the article and do it properly
 
K

katie_tully

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Hey Sydneysiders, is the conservatorium just up the road from Governors House in Syd?
 

Phanatical

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walrusbear said:
also, for someone pretending to be a voice of reason in this whole thing his coverage of the rally was sensationalised crap!
do you hear me phan!! it sucked!
rewrite the article and do it properly
Don't you be telling me what to do on my own blog. The Quah Report is open to criticism, but my blog is not.
 

maniacguy

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Having read this, I believe the anti-VSU arguement can be summed up as follows:

Without compulsory membership of student associations, it is likely that many student associations will be unable to sustain their current wide range of activities, which help turn the student body into a cohesive vibrant community rather than a collection of individuals who just want to get a degree and get out.

The benefits of these activities extend to all students, and so it is fair to expect all students to pay for them, but in an environment where this is not compulsory, it is just too hard to stop people from trying to get benefits without paying. As this occurs, more and more people will stop paying and get benefits, at which point the association goes broke.


The pro-VSU position (which I happen to support - I'm not completely happy with the current VSU proposition, but I believe that it is better than retaining compulsory student unionism regardless of this) is that:

Yes, some of the activities student associations fund are acknowledged to be of universal benefit, and all students should pay for them. But too many of the other activities conducted by the association are wasteful, and serve only the interests of a handful of students, never to be taken up by the majority.

Why should the part-time student who cannot be on campus during the day to take advantage of these services be denied their use, and instead subsidise the full-time student who chooses to skip classes to carry out these activities? (I believe this was Brendan Nelson's example, though he mentioned a single mother subsidising rugby).

Now, my proposed solution is that the conducting of these valuable activities be taken away from student associations and be placed in the hands of the university administration, with managers with appropriate experience hired to fulfil those positions. Let the funds be added to the university's funds, and let the amount of money (if any is to be charged) be added to the HECS bill.

Services that are deemed truly necessary, such as subsidised childcare, will still be retained (at heart, because the political fallout from trying to cut them would be too great), but I doubt greatly that a manager aware that his/her continued employment hinges on the ability to demonstrate genuine use of the money collected would be inclined to fund student protests.

Why am I `taking power away from students'? Because quite frankly, I don't think students have demonstrated that they have the capacity to adequately handle the funds that are being entrusted to their care, and I think genuine expertise is necessary.

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise trips away from the university that often result in a vast amount of subsidised alcohol being consumed - I accept that clubs are entitled to help their members bond, but the promotion of a drinking culture (particularly given the problems society already faces as a result of binge drinking) is something I am firmly against. (I have been on such trips and seen the effects - and for the benefit of anyone who believes my position as a result to be hypocrisy, the clubs running those activities would have been easily capable of raising the funds to subsidise the trip with or without the existence of the Guild (more on this at the end).)

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise a giant pissup that encourages activities which in many cases are outside the law and claims they are harmless pranks (aka UNSW Foundation Day - the Scavenger Hunt often involves stealing items, and whilst the Student Guild claims officially not to condone it, student publications (Tharunka in particular) frequently speak about the traditions of Foundation Day as involving outrageous activities). I believe that if students want to do that, they can damn well pay for it themselves.

Because I object to my money being used to fund political positions that I do not support, and if pressed to give an opinion on, would most likely oppose (a la campaigns in 2003 and 2004 to 'Free the Refugees'), on the grounds that the office bearers of the Guild seemed to think it was appropriate.

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise activities whose participation rates have been so low relative to the costs involved that their survival can only really be put down to tradition (Foundation Day again).

Because I object to the fact that students' money is being used to fund the excesses of a small group (Melbourne Uni Student Union - recently placed into administration, I believe - and Macquarie Uni's SAM, riddled with corruption).

Because I object to any of my money going to the National Union of Students, and to their president being considered a voice for students in Australia, when quite frankly I agree with almost none of his statements.


To those who protest that subsidised food will disappear, guess what? McDonald's at Kingsford sells meals for lower prices than individual burgers go for on the UNSW campus. There are already two private providers on campus, and with over 30,000 people a DAY on the UNSW campus, it is not hard to think that many many more would jump at the chance to get there. It would only be necessary to subsidise one or two food outlets if for example a vegetarian shop were deemed a necessity (not guaranteed by any means).

To those who claim that not all clubs can afford to carry out activities without funding - if the club's activity is considered of benefit it may still be subsidised, but there will need to be a case made regarding its benefit, rather than simply allowing clubs to claim subsidies up to certain amounts. I am not advocating the abolition of all activities, but their proper management and the elimination of those activities that are simply wasteful of students' funds.

In addition, there are always sponsorship opportunities - if universities are the pathways of elite sport, surely national sporting bodies would be prepared to spend the funds needed to keep sporting clubs running at a sustainable level? If theatre and the arts are of such essential importance (and there is no doubt a place for them), then surely the Federal and State Governments would be willing to subsidise young artists? No, the clubs that suffer will be clubs that are unwilling to stretch themselves to look at the opportunities in the wider world, but have grown accustomed to relying on handouts.

I haven't thought through all the arguements, but damn it feels good to get that off my chest anyway!!!
 

Phanatical

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That's a good argument. I can't say I agree with it all, but your arguments are logical.
 
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thatjazz

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maniacguy said:
Having read this, I believe the anti-VSU arguement can be summed up as follows:

Without compulsory membership of student associations, it is likely that many student associations will be unable to sustain their current wide range of activities, which help turn the student body into a cohesive vibrant community rather than a collection of individuals who just want to get a degree and get out.

The benefits of these activities extend to all students, and so it is fair to expect all students to pay for them, but in an environment where this is not compulsory, it is just too hard to stop people from trying to get benefits without paying. As this occurs, more and more people will stop paying and get benefits, at which point the association goes broke.


The pro-VSU position (which I happen to support - I'm not completely happy with the current VSU proposition, but I believe that it is better than retaining compulsory student unionism regardless of this) is that:

Yes, some of the activities student associations fund are acknowledged to be of universal benefit, and all students should pay for them. But too many of the other activities conducted by the association are wasteful, and serve only the interests of a handful of students, never to be taken up by the majority.

Why should the part-time student who cannot be on campus during the day to take advantage of these services be denied their use, and instead subsidise the full-time student who chooses to skip classes to carry out these activities? (I believe this was Brendan Nelson's example, though he mentioned a single mother subsidising rugby).

Now, my proposed solution is that the conducting of these valuable activities be taken away from student associations and be placed in the hands of the university administration, with managers with appropriate experience hired to fulfil those positions. Let the funds be added to the university's funds, and let the amount of money (if any is to be charged) be added to the HECS bill.

Services that are deemed truly necessary, such as subsidised childcare, will still be retained (at heart, because the political fallout from trying to cut them would be too great), but I doubt greatly that a manager aware that his/her continued employment hinges on the ability to demonstrate genuine use of the money collected would be inclined to fund student protests.

Why am I `taking power away from students'? Because quite frankly, I don't think students have demonstrated that they have the capacity to adequately handle the funds that are being entrusted to their care, and I think genuine expertise is necessary.

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise trips away from the university that often result in a vast amount of subsidised alcohol being consumed - I accept that clubs are entitled to help their members bond, but the promotion of a drinking culture (particularly given the problems society already faces as a result of binge drinking) is something I am firmly against. (I have been on such trips and seen the effects - and for the benefit of anyone who believes my position as a result to be hypocrisy, the clubs running those activities would have been easily capable of raising the funds to subsidise the trip with or without the existence of the Guild (more on this at the end).)

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise a giant pissup that encourages activities which in many cases are outside the law and claims they are harmless pranks (aka UNSW Foundation Day - the Scavenger Hunt often involves stealing items, and whilst the Student Guild claims officially not to condone it, student publications (Tharunka in particular) frequently speak about the traditions of Foundation Day as involving outrageous activities). I believe that if students want to do that, they can damn well pay for it themselves.

Because I object to my money being used to fund political positions that I do not support, and if pressed to give an opinion on, would most likely oppose (a la campaigns in 2003 and 2004 to 'Free the Refugees'), on the grounds that the office bearers of the Guild seemed to think it was appropriate.

Because I object to my money being used to subsidise activities whose participation rates have been so low relative to the costs involved that their survival can only really be put down to tradition (Foundation Day again).

Because I object to the fact that students' money is being used to fund the excesses of a small group (Melbourne Uni Student Union - recently placed into administration, I believe - and Macquarie Uni's SAM, riddled with corruption).

Because I object to any of my money going to the National Union of Students, and to their president being considered a voice for students in Australia, when quite frankly I agree with almost none of his statements.


To those who protest that subsidised food will disappear, guess what? McDonald's at Kingsford sells meals for lower prices than individual burgers go for on the UNSW campus. There are already two private providers on campus, and with over 30,000 people a DAY on the UNSW campus, it is not hard to think that many many more would jump at the chance to get there. It would only be necessary to subsidise one or two food outlets if for example a vegetarian shop were deemed a necessity (not guaranteed by any means).

To those who claim that not all clubs can afford to carry out activities without funding - if the club's activity is considered of benefit it may still be subsidised, but there will need to be a case made regarding its benefit, rather than simply allowing clubs to claim subsidies up to certain amounts. I am not advocating the abolition of all activities, but their proper management and the elimination of those activities that are simply wasteful of students' funds.

In addition, there are always sponsorship opportunities - if universities are the pathways of elite sport, surely national sporting bodies would be prepared to spend the funds needed to keep sporting clubs running at a sustainable level? If theatre and the arts are of such essential importance (and there is no doubt a place for them), then surely the Federal and State Governments would be willing to subsidise young artists? No, the clubs that suffer will be clubs that are unwilling to stretch themselves to look at the opportunities in the wider world, but have grown accustomed to relying on handouts.

I haven't thought through all the arguements, but damn it feels good to get that off my chest anyway!!!
You make a terrific argument, very cohesive and well structured. However, I must say that, although eloquently written as it was, I must disagree with your viewpoint. You spent a great deal of time discussing why you do not feel that you should, in effect, be paying for services you aren't neccessarily using, but really, isn't that the nature of our society? Aren't most tax payers paying money to the Government, a portion of which will go to a service they are in now way benefited by? By your logic, someone who is unmarried and without children has the right not to pay all of their tax, because some of it will be spent on services (Education, for example) that in no way benefits them.

This is the selfish attitude that I believe VSU promotes. In your argument, you seem to have raised a very valid question - "Why pay fees for something that will not benefit me directly?"

Because the services provided by Student Unions contribute to the well-being of every student of the University. The fees you are paying go towards many services - counselling, health/dental care, food, etc - that benefits the majority of your student population. Without these services, it is likely that many students are unable to afford them outside of the university. You are indirectly affected by the payment of fees. Without Student Unions, the students have no voice, or no say in the goings-on within the university.

I agree with you, in part, when you say that you object to your money being used to fund a "piss up", and this, I believe is the only argument that Pro-VSU people have to substantiate their claims. Yes, it is wrong that money you are paying is spent on alcohol and the likes for students. Remember, though, that there is another view to that story. You may not accept that some of your fees are being spent on these so-called "piss ups", in the same way that, for example, a homophobic person may object to a portion of their fees being used to fund sexuality counsellors, and organisations.

In money payed as Tax to the Government, various things are then funded which I do not agree with. For instance, I am not overly fond of the Private school system being Government subsidised, not to mention the exorbitant amouts of money being spent on an unjust war. But, it is part of our duty as citizens to ensure not only our own wellbeing, but that of everyone else. You may disagree with your money being spent the way it is, but I am very much assured you are better off now then you will be after the Unions collapse (due to no funding).

Finally, I should like to express my disdain for the latest news on the VSU saga. One Government official (whose name escapes me) has asked that it be "proven that VSU will affect Universities". This is the most pathetic thing I've read in a long while - we are asking to prove the effects of something which, until effective, has no effect. To use a simple analogy: That is the same as saying that you will be shot in the head, unless you can prove that it will cause damage.

Don't wait until the Government pulls the trigger.
 
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thatjazz said:
You make a terrific argument, very cohesive and well structured. However, I must say that, although eloquently written as it was, I must disagree with your viewpoint. You spent a great deal of time discussing why you do not feel that you should, in effect, be paying for services you aren't neccessarily using, but really, isn't that the nature of our society? Aren't most tax payers paying money to the Government, a portion of which will go to a service they are in now way benefited by? By your logic, someone who is unmarried and without children has the right not to pay all of their tax, because some of it will be spent on services (Education, for example) that in no way benefits them.

This is the selfish attitude that I believe VSU promotes. In your argument, you seem to have raised a very valid question - "Why pay fees for something that will not benefit me directly?"

Because the services provided by Student Unions contribute to the well-being of every student of the University. The fees you are paying go towards many services - counselling, health/dental care, food, etc - that benefits the majority of your student population. Without these services, it is likely that many students are unable to afford them outside of the university. You are indirectly affected by the payment of fees. Without Student Unions, the students have no voice, or no say in the goings-on within the university.

I agree with you, in part, when you say that you object to your money being used to fund a "piss up", and this, I believe is the only argument that Pro-VSU people have to substantiate their claims. Yes, it is wrong that money you are paying is spent on alcohol and the likes for students. Remember, though, that there is another view to that story. You may not accept that some of your fees are being spent on these so-called "piss ups", in the same way that, for example, a homophobic person may object to a portion of their fees being used to fund sexuality counsellors, and organisations.

In money payed as Tax to the Government, various things are then funded which I do not agree with. For instance, I am not overly fond of the Private school system being Government subsidised, not to mention the exorbitant amouts of money being spent on an unjust war. But, it is part of our duty as citizens to ensure not only our own wellbeing, but that of everyone else. You may disagree with your money being spent the way it is, but I am very much assured you are better off now then you will be after the Unions collapse (due to no funding).

Finally, I should like to express my disdain for the latest news on the VSU saga. One Government official (whose name escapes me) has asked that it be "proven that VSU will affect Universities". This is the most pathetic thing I've read in a long while - we are asking to prove the effects of something which, until effective, has no effect. To use a simple analogy: That is the same as saying that you will be shot in the head, unless you can prove that it will cause damage.

Don't wait until the Government pulls the trigger.
Why does everyone compare this to tax? Why don't we compare it to something like oh I don't know, the hobbyist needleworkers club, who only receive money from members. Seeing as this is an organisation which doesn't require everyone to donate, regardless of benefits, clearly this supports the VSU argument just as much as the tax example supports the USU side of things.

Unless of course there is some inherent similarity between paying taxes and paying communist fuckwads to protest about the rights of indigenous homosexual left handed amputees, and buy themselves new cars, pizza and a few beers while they're at it, which escapes me at this point in time.
 

ambidextrouscal

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Hear Hear!

Hear hear. Come gather, all ye people, and listen to what this fine speaker has to say.
Im completely with you on this one Thatjazz!
 

withoutaface

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thatjazz said:
You make a terrific argument, very cohesive and well structured. However, I must say that, although eloquently written as it was, I must disagree with your viewpoint. You spent a great deal of time discussing why you do not feel that you should, in effect, be paying for services you aren't neccessarily using, but really, isn't that the nature of our society? Are most tax payers paying money to the Government, a portion of which will go to a service they are in now way benefited by? By your logic, someone who is unmarried and without children has the right not to pay all of their tax, because some of it will be spent on services (Education, for example) that in no way benefits them.
Stupid analogy. They were educated, were they not?
Because the services provided by Student Unions contribute to the well-being of every student of the University. The fees you are paying go towards many services - counselling, health/dental care, food, etc - that benefits the majority of your student population. Without these services, it is likely that many students are unable to afford them outside of the university. You are indirectly affected by the payment of fees. Without Student Unions, the students have no voice, or no say in the goings-on within the university.
1. Usyd Union provides no healthcare, and 90% of students on campus (myself included) would have no idea how to contact the counsellors.
2. Students already have no voice. The SRC abuse their power to push their leftist agendas which a huge percentage of the student population don't agree with.
3. If someone can afford $5 for lunch at uni, they can afford 50c for a bread roll outside of it and bring it with them for lunch. Don't be ridiculous.
I agree with you, in part, when you say that you object to your money being used to fund a "piss up", and this, I believe is the only argument that Pro-VSU people have to substantiate their claims. Yes, it is wrong that money you are paying is spent on alcohol and the likes for students. Remember, though, that there is another view to that story. You may not accept that some of your fees are being spent on these so-called "piss ups", in the same way that, for example, a homophobic person may object to a portion of their fees being used to fund sexuality counsellors, and organisations.
VSU KILLS QUEERS!

In money payed as Tax to the Government, various things are then funded which I do not agree with. For instance, I am not overly fond of the Private school system being Government subsidised, not to mention the exorbitant amouts of money being spent on an unjust war. But, it is part of our duty as citizens to ensure not only our own wellbeing, but that of everyone else. You may disagree with your money being spent the way it is, but I am very much assured you are better off now then you will be after the Unions collapse (due to no funding).
Why should private schools not receive funding?
Also Unions will maintain approximately 40% of their present memebers, and at least 50% of their current funding. They will not collapse, they will just become more financially sustainable.
Finally, I should like to express my disdain for the latest news on the VSU saga. One Government official (whose name escapes me) has asked that it be "proven that VSU will affect Universities". This is the most pathetic thing I've read in a long while - we are asking to prove the effects of something which, until effective, has no effect. To use a simple analogy: That is the same as saying that you will be shot in the head, unless you can prove that it will cause damage.

Don't wait until the Government pulls the trigger.
But it seems that the ALSF has had a good look at past instances and provided substaintial evidence of the benefits of VSU. Funny that.
 
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Wraith

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thatjazz said:
... ramblings about random crap that nobody gives a flying fuck about ...
You're HSC 2006, and you're commenting on that stuff.
Sorry, post was too long and probably irrelevant. Your post was skipped. Good day sir.
 

SashatheMan

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Wraith said:
You're HSC 2006, and you're commenting on that stuff.
Sorry, post was too long and probably irrelevant. Your post was skipped. Good day sir.
u have 21 posts and soem asian avatar.

post skipped
 

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