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Why do people hate religion? (1 Viewer)

mr EaZy

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this is the 1 verse in question

O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write;

and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it;

but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness;

and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other;

and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

this is the above verse- so if there is injustice- it will be directed to the one in debt. this is what the verse was about. where a guy needs people to witness the contract being drafted- get 2 men or a man and two women- its much easier to get 2 men than one man + 2 women so hopefully the first option will suffice.

at the end the one in debt will decide whether justice has been afforded or not,
women can participate in the courts

but the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned

islam tries to relieve women of certain communal obligations through this means- let them concentrate on other issues in life that are more important- especially where the contract relates to 2 people she doesnt even know!

that would be the position that id take
 

mr EaZy

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mr EaZy said:
agnostic?
th way i see it, humans have always had a need that there is something bigger than us, or that theres somethings we need to wonder about- how did we come into being ? etc

athiesm- by its nature denies its followers these basic human faculties.

just IMO

what ur inner girl said about religion and people leaving it to the WILL OF God - i dont know how the christians would see it but in islam its different

and besides- i know many christian groups campaigning for environmental reforms , kyoto, detention centres....

im not an expert on this or any other topic- i can deliver what i know but there'll always be heaps more stuff i dont know - this area of islam is huge

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar

We do not use the word “fate” in Islam. The word “fate” means “the power that determines the outcome of events before they occur”. Some people believe in fate as an independent and invisible power that controls their destinies. Such people are called “fatalists”. A Muslim is not a fatalist person.
Muslims believe in Allah and only Allah has the power to predetermine anything. Allah is “al-Qadir” (the All Powerful or Omnipotent) and “al-`Alim” (the All Knower, Omniscient). Since Allah has power over every thing, He must know everything. He must know things before they happen, because if He knew things only after they happened, He would not have full power over them. Allah not only knows everything, but He also decides and determines everything in His universe. Whatever happens in this world happens according to Allah’s decision and plan.
Does this mean that we human beings have no freedom? It seems that way apparently to some people. One Western scholar put the problem very interestingly in the following words: “If God knows everything He must know the future, and if He knows the future, He must know the future acts of His creatures. But then His creatures must act, as He knows they will act. How then can they be free?”
And then it gets interesting- check it out (we dont believe in the above proposition- its a fatalist position)

but to me.... this is how it goes: you have free will, but your will is subject to God's will. like you work hard for a million bucks- you dont get it- its because God didnt will for you to get it- do u give up? no, there is a reason behind why we dont get what we want- use that to get back up again.

and God says:

“Neither according to your desires, nor according to the desires of the People of the Book, whosoever will do evil will be requited accordingly and shall not find beside Allah any protector or helper. If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (an-Nisa’: 123-124) “This because Allah does never change a favor that He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition...” (al-Anfal: 53) “Every person stands pledged for what he has earned.” (at-Tur: 21) “"The truth is from your Lord; wherefore whosoever wills, let him believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.” (al-Kahf: 29) “This is a reminder. So let him, who will, take a way unto his Lord.” (al-Muzzammil: 19)
basically, nothing will happen if you sit around doing nothing. Also, time is a creation of Allah and he doesnt need to wait for things to happen- he knows that they will happen. (like i said, im not an expert- ill leave it here: dont ask me on this!),

an example is that of abu lahb- the Quran declared that he will burn in hell- this was 10 years before he died- he could have said "i believe" and What the Quran said would be contradicted... so the "fate" of islam lay in his hands- God knew that there was no chance that that guy would accept islam- other hardliners at the time did. and this guy died of natural causes i believe.
 
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mr EaZy

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“Whatever misfortune befalls you is the consequence of what your own hands have wrought. And Allah forgives many of your sins.” (ash-Shura: 30)

likewise- we caused the problems to this world-

our actions caused this imbalance to what this world was meant to be- the effects on the atmosphere is simply a reaction-

if you wanna say that God planned it, then you would say that God created the world with all these balances that have to be maintained

and that is why, islam forbids polluting environments, wasting resources and torturing animals and their habitats- to keep the balance.
 

Not-That-Bright

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th way i see it, humans have always had a need that there is something bigger than us, or that theres somethings we need to wonder about- how did we come into being ? etc

athiesm- by its nature denies its followers these basic human faculties.
... Atheism doesn't have 'followers', there are no rules or anything to be followed, it's just people who have the characteristic 'do not believe in God'.

Anyway if you want to claim agnosticism is moderate and atheism isn't then wouldn't that put theism in the same category?
 

lengy

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Except for the fact that theism and atheism are direct opposites, or is that nihilism?
 

HotShot

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Not-That-Bright said:
Been said wayyy too many times before... but:
"If atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby."



Wow.. lol

Anyway, since atheism isn't their motivation... I don't see the point to even bring it up.
hmm....

see athiesm is a belief that there is no supernatural force - its a belief faith in essence.

REligion is a belief that there is a supernatural force - tis abelief infaith in essence.

where as not collecting stamps cannot be hobby because ur not doing anything. but athies ur doing something and that is not believing in GOD. It may not technically religion but nevertheless it is very similar.
 

Not-That-Bright

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see athiesm is a belief that there is no supernatural force - its a belief faith in essence.
Atheism is not that there's no supernatural force, some atheists can believe in the supernatural just not God.

where as not collecting stamps cannot be hobby because ur not doing anything. but athies ur doing something and that is not believing in GOD. It may not technically religion but nevertheless it is very similar.
Er... by that same logic couldn't you say not collecting stamps is a hobby 'because you're doing something and that is not collecting stamps'. It is not a religion unless you want to fuck up the definition of a religion to include governments, sporting teams etc. It has almost nothing in common with other things that we would call religions around the world.
 
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_dhj_

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*Love-2-Hate-U* said:
I hate religion because religion hates me.

simple :'(
I know what you mean!!

I also hate religion because religious people frown upon atheists.
 

HotShot

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Not-That-Bright said:
Atheism is not that there's no supernatural force, some atheists can believe in the supernatural just not God.



Er... by that same logic couldn't you say not collecting stamps is a hobby 'because you're doing something and that is not collecting stamps'. It is not a religion unless you want to fuck up the definition of a religion to include governments, sporting teams etc. It has almost nothing in common with other things that we would call religions around the world.
well if you r doing something then you call it a hobby.

religion = belief faith.
aesthim = belief faith tat there is no religon.
 

HotShot

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*Love-2-Hate-U* said:
lol I KNOW AYE LOL LOL LOL

what do you suggest I do? :(
why should u care if someone hates you? unless they are someone you care about? but i am assuming they are strangers..
 

bshoc

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bored6 said:
Uh oh; don't be so sure of Hitler mate. Its a massive area of debate and personally, if anyone has read Mein Kampf its more then possible that he was in fact a Christian of sorts or at least a (raised as?) believer (for those religous sorts who will cry "oh but hes not a christian because he acted like etc etc").

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]-"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

- [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

-
[/FONT]

Edit: You can't deny these qoutes...despite the context; they at least point to some form of adhereing to Christianity and thus he cannot be classified as atheist
We can however differentiate what Hitler expressed outwardly to the still majority catholic/lutherian German population at public rallies and gatherings, which is what you're quoting, as opposed to his discussions with members of his own Nazi Party and on his genuine personal views.

Which is what you would have found out if you read the link I posted before actually responding to it http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

Hitler, like all true socialists, was an athiest.
 

dieburndie

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bshoc said:
We can however differentiate what Hitler expressed outwardly to the still majority catholic/lutherian German population at public rallies and gatherings, which is what you're quoting, as opposed to his discussions with members of his own Nazi Party and on his genuine personal views.

Which is what you would have found out if you read the link I posted before actually responding to it http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

Hitler, like all true socialists, was an athiest.
A true socialist? What the fuck?
Are you serious at all?
I mean for starters, what about the brutal opposition to the SPD and Communism?
Sure, I know the regime had a few economic attriibutes which might be comparable to socialism, but calling him a true socialist is a major stretch.
Tell me how you came to this conclusion, without the use of "His party had it in it's name", because that doesn't really explain anything
 

bshoc

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dieburndie said:
A true socialist? What the fuck?
Are you serious at all?
Sure, social, political and economic collectivisation, and a few other attributes is what we call a socialsist system. Whether we infuse it with democracy, and call it democratic socialism, or with nationalism and call it national socialism etc. comes after the establishment of the socialist benchmark.

I mean for starters, what about the brutal opposition to the SPD and Communism?
Socialists and communists always have their little infighting, remember the all the Trotsky Stalin feuds, why do you think the people needed four internationals?

Sure, I know the regime had a few economic attriibutes which might be comparable to socialism, but calling him a true socialist is a major stretch.
Tell me how you came to this conclusion, without the use of "His party had it in it's name", because that doesn't really explain anything
It explains alot of things actually, the NSDAP was orignially founded as simply as the "German Workers Party" or DAP, people who were essentially socialists but did not adhere to the Marxist view of world revolution, but rather prefered to keep their national identity. To which people like you would say would rule out the socialist label, but I point you to the overt nationalism generated out of every other socialist country, the USSR, China, Cuba or the USSR's concept of "socialism in one state," heck the USSR and China nearly went to war a few times (or actually did have a few limited conflicts), socialist infighting is common.

Seriously man read the 25 point program and say with a stright face thats not socialism on paper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program#German_Party_Platform

points 9-23 especially

# All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
# The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all Consequently we demand:
# Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.
# In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
# We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
# We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
# We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
# We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
# We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
# We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, Schieber and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
# We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
# The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
# The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
# We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
# We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race: b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language: c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
 
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HotShot

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Not-That-Bright said:
....what?
if you are doing something you call it a hobby, so if ur not collecting stamps and doind somethin else its a hobby.

the same with athiesm. Athiesm is a belief that there is no GOD and no intervention in this world etc.

Just like religion which is only just the opposite. I am just saying Athiesm is similar to religion in the sense they are both a belief.
 

ur_inner_child

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HotShot said:
if you are doing something you call it a hobby, so if ur not collecting stamps and doind somethin else its a hobby.

the same with athiesm. Athiesm is a belief that there is no GOD and no intervention in this world etc.

Just like religion which is only just the opposite. I am just saying Athiesm is similar to religion in the sense they are both a belief.
I understand why you're saying such a thing. Yes atheists believe that there is no God, but yes it is the opposite. You cannot call it a religion if atheists do not engage in any of them.

And I see that you say "atheism is therefore similar" or "atheism is belief faith in an essence".

Your example with the hobbies, you assume that one must have belief all the time: eg if someone does not collect stamps as a hobby, they MUST do something else that is still a hobby. Therefore, for this logic to work, that everyone MUST always have a belief. I don't disagree with that, but you are pulling straws as to their similarity.

Yes atheists and religious people both have their beliefs. But they are positive and negative. There is a major difference in believing in a God because there is an institution you belong to. Atheists don't believe in a God and it stops there.

As with, say when we were young, a child asks you whether you believe in the Easter Bunny. Say you said no. With the same logic, the child concludes "therefore you must believe in something else, we are types of "believers" and similar in that we both believe in the existence or non-existence of the Easter Bunny".

And thus we distinquish between these beliefs/ideas. Yours is a religion. Atheists are not within a religion just because it involves ideas. As with a feminist has their own ideas, but you cannot call it a religion.
 
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