• Best of luck to the class of 2024 for their HSC exams. You got this!
    Let us know your thoughts on the HSC exams here
  • YOU can help the next generation of students in the community!
    Share your trial papers and notes on our Notes & Resources page
MedVision ad

Anarcho-capitalists, I'm calling you out.... (1 Viewer)

murphyad

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
416
Location
Newy, brah!
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
Having noticed the increasing preponderance of anarcho-capitalist ideas (or even anarchist/minarchist in general) in this forum as of late, I figured that it might be an idea to create a separate thread to deal with this topic more fully.

So far a-c has come up in a few other threads but never as the main focus of the topic and also perhaps without the debate that it deserves. So to kick off, what is it that motivates people's belief in anarcho-capitalism et al in an ideological sense?
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

world
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Messages
941
Location
Unknown
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
A lack of moral character and a predisposition to any of the empathy-lacking mental disorders such as the sociopathy disorders of narcissism, dissocial personality, and/or anti-social personality, or autistic spectrum disorders such as Asperger's.

Or they might just be bored nerds with no friends eh, who's to say? :cool:
 

Freedom_

Banned
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
173
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
I dont actually consider myself an Anarcho-capitalists; but a Libertarian.
 
C

copkiller

Guest
I have a few problems with the state, such as:

-Hundreds of millions of innocent people slaughtered in war between modern nation states.
-The threat of total destruction of life on this planet due to nuclear weapons that were developed and built exclusively by nation states with tax revenue. Also worth noting that nuclear weapons have been used to murder civilians by a democratically elected, supposedly limited government.
-The millions of people in the state's prisons right now who are used as virtual slaves, are often subjected to beatings, rape and abuse by their guards; many of whom have committed no violent crime whatsoever.
-The millions who have needlessly died from drugs because they couldn't get clean drugs due to the state's laws.
-The innocent bystanders killed as a byproduct of gang warfare that results from the criminalization of victimless crimes like drugs, prostitution and gambling.
-People forced into unemployment and degrading welfare dependence because of the governments minimum wage laws.
-The stifling of economic development and prosperity that could lift billions out of poverty due to bureaucracy, red tape and taxation.
-The trillions stolen from taxpayers (once again in supposedly democratic, free countries) that was transferred to wealthy banking interests who funded the politicians that bailed them out.
-Constant invasion of basic privacy under the guise of protecting national security. All internation traffic that passes through the United States (i.e most international traffic) is now monitored by the NSA. Most governments the world over now have wide ranging provisions allowing them to spy on their own citizens, with the agencies that do this having no accountability to the public, once again because it could jepordize national security.


There's just a few things that come to mind. Those that call us selfish are really resorting to a very childish ad hominem. We are not against charity or helping the poor, we are just against forcing people to contribute to such causes using the threat of imprisonment and murder.
 

murphyad

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
416
Location
Newy, brah!
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
Many of those issues I too find deeply disconcerting.
But the question I really mean to ask is, why is anarcho-capitalism likely to fix those sorts of problems, and how?
 

withoutaface

Premium Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Messages
15,098
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
The same thing that motivates the adoption of any utopian philosophy: a refusal to acknowledge shades of grey and a strong predisposition towards dogma.
 
C

copkiller

Guest
Many of those issues I too find deeply disconcerting.
But the question I really mean to ask is, why is anarcho-capitalism likely to fix those sorts of problems, and how?
Well without a state that has an unlimited power to tax people and print money, its a lot harder for any of these things to happen.

Would you voluntarily fund a private security firm that fought wars in the middle east, or locked people up for victimless crimes, or stockpiled nuclear weapons?

Even if people favor this sort of thing (as some types always will), if they have to pay for it out of their own pockets and can't force others to fund it, it makes it a lot less likely to happen.
 
C

copkiller

Guest
The same thing that motivates the adoption of any utopian philosophy: a refusal to acknowledge shades of grey and a strong predisposition towards dogma.
It's not a Utopian philosophy and you know this.

Name one anarcho-capitalist philosopher who claims it will produce a utopia.........

Its quite the opposite, the state promises a solution to everything. The state claims with the right tweaking and regulation it can fix every problem.

We admit that everything doesn't always have an easy solution. For example, if you legalize drugs, people will still take them, and some people will still be badly hurt by them. Its regrettable, but we can't make everything all perfect because people are not perfect. All we can do is make people as free as possible, and that will lead to the best possible, achievable outcomes. Not perfect outcomes.
 

murphyad

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
416
Location
Newy, brah!
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
So let me sort this out as well.....

Would the judiciary remain or would there be some other source of law to determine the concept of a 'crime'?

Or would such a concept be rendered invalid?
 

Freedom_

Banned
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
173
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
The same thing that motivates the adoption of any utopian philosophy: a refusal to acknowledge shades of grey and a strong predisposition towards dogma.
The true utopian is one who advocates a system that is contrary to the natural law of human beings and of the real world. A utopian system is one that could not work even if everyone were persuaded to try to put it into practice. A system that could not sustain itself in operation. The utopian goal of the left: communism—fail as it violates the very nature of man and the world.

Lets make this clear, the term “utopian” in popular parlance confuses two kinds of obstacles in the path of a program radically different from the status quo. One is that it violates the nature of man and of the world and therefore could not work once it was put into effect. This is the utopianism of communism. The second is the difficulty in convincing enough people that the program should be adopted. The former is a bad theory because it violates the nature of man; the latter is simply a problem of human will, of convincing enough people of the rightness of the doctrine. “Utopian” in its common pejorative sense applies only to the former. In the deepest sense, then, the libertarian (Anarcho- whatever you want to call us) doctrine is not utopian but eminently realistic, because it is the only theory that is really consistent with the nature of man and the world. The libertarian does not deny the variety and diversity of man, we, glory in it and seeks to give that diversity full expression in a world of complete freedom. And in doing so, we also brings about an enormous increase in productivity and in the living standards of everyone, an eminently “practical” result generally scorned by true utopians as evil “materialism.”
 
Last edited:
C

copkiller

Guest
So let me sort this out as well.....

Would the judiciary remain or would there be some other source of law to determine the concept of a 'crime'?

Or would such a concept be rendered invalid?
Under anarcho-capitalism there is no compulsory government.

We can't be sure exactly how it would be structured because its never been tried in a modern context. But everything including courts (to the extent they exist) would be run by private organizations.
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

world
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Messages
941
Location
Unknown
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
I have a few problems with the state, such as:

-Hundreds of millions of innocent people slaughtered in war between modern nation states.
This hasn't happened before. Unless you're counting Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia as 'modern nation states'.

-The threat of total destruction of life on this planet due to nuclear weapons that were developed and built exclusively by nation states with tax revenue.
As opposed to the threat of total destruction of life on this planet due to nuclear weapons that were developed and built exclusively by private enterprises with shareholder revenue? ;)

Nuclear weapons are a stupid idea, which is why most world governments haven't elected to build them. But what exactly is preventing free market entrepreneurs from building them? Right now, it's the government, ironically enough. What would it be in an anarcho-capitalist system? And how would an anarcho-capitalist system magically disarm China, Iran, North Korea, or Russia? It's power, which is money. An anarcho-capitalist system would design and trade nukes the first chance it got.

Also worth noting that nuclear weapons have been used to murder civilians by a democratically elected, supposedly limited government.
The calculation was the more civilians would die without their use. IS your issue with the fact that a choice was made between the two possibilities or that action was taken at all? Either way, doesn't seem a very defensible stance.

-The millions of people in the state's prisons right now who are used as virtual slaves, are often subjected to beatings, rape and abuse by their guards; many of whom have committed no violent crime whatsoever.
Australia has a prison population smaller than 30,000. There are certainly not often subjected to beatings, rape, and abuse by their guards. Where do you come up with this stuff?

I'm all for overhaul of criminal law, but we can do that within the current system, and over time that has been happening. No points for anarcho-capitalism there.

-The millions who have needlessly died from drugs because they couldn't get clean drugs due to the state's laws.
As above, needs overhaul. Perfectly doable in the current system of liberal democracy, ignoring the progress that's already been made (needle exchange points, injection rooms, safe needle use advice, etc). I'm glad most Australian states have decriminalised marijuana. There's more to do though.

-The innocent bystanders killed as a byproduct of gang warfare that results from the criminalization of victimless crimes like drugs, prostitution and gambling.
Drugs and robbery largely. Prostitution and gambling laws vary by state but we're pretty lax here compared to, say, America. Could do with reform.

-People forced into unemployment and degrading welfare dependence because of the governments minimum wage laws.
Because, clearly, removing minimum wage laws and the dole will fix problems like unemployment!

Might I add that unemployment in Australia is at an optimal level? If unemployment falls too low, it constrains growth, as there is a small or non-existent pool of hirable labour.

-The stifling of economic development and prosperity that could lift billions out of poverty due to bureaucracy, red tape and taxation.
Billions? What, are you trying to fix the world in one fell swoop? Solve world poverty and enact world peace? And you think allowing unrestrained exploitation of things like the labour market and environment will do that?

-The trillions stolen from taxpayers (once again in supposedly democratic, free countries) that was transferred to wealthy banking interests who funded the politicians that bailed them out.
Are you an American or an Australian? You're saying things that don't even apply to Australia (and only apply to America if you're misguided).

As for taxation: I suppose you'd have private companies with no oversight build our roads and run our prisons. I can certainly see that ending well. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure removing taxation would change much anyway. Everyone would suddenly be richer and the cost of items would increase such that they were as expensive as before. Although certainly the poor would be poorer, and the rich would be richer. I guess in your world that's a good thing.

-Constant invasion of basic privacy under the guise of protecting national security. All internation traffic that passes through the United States (i.e most international traffic) is now monitored by the NSA. Most governments the world over now have wide ranging provisions allowing them to spy on their own citizens, with the agencies that do this having no accountability to the public, once again because it could jepordize national security.
Those are being pared back under Obama. See the recently passed JUSTICE act. Again, though, Australia does not equal America. Rudd can't even manage to pass his internet filter.

But what would you have us do? Grin and bear terrorist attacks? I'm all for limiting government spying, but states like Somalia or Afghanistan won't magically cease to exist under anarcho-capitalism.

There's just a few things that come to mind. Those that call us selfish are really resorting to a very childish ad hominem.
Oh, so you're not selfish now? I wish you guys could decide. Half of you twits try to convince us selfishness is a good thing and the more selfish you are the better, and the other half try to convince us it's not selfishness at all.

We are not against charity or helping the poor, we are just against forcing people to contribute to such causes using the threat of imprisonment and murder.
Name one Western country under which you can be executed for, say, not paying taxes (I know it's punishable by death in China, but hopefully you can see why that's not a valid example).
 
Last edited:
C

copkiller

Guest
Hey freedom, do you wanna rip SHODAN's post to pieces for me? I'm too disgusted right now.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
352
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
An anarcho-capitalist system would design and trade nukes the first chance it got.
lol..? the 'system' would design and trade nukes..?
Under an anarcho-capitalist system (if one can even exist) nuclear weapons would only exist if individuals had incentives to build them, i.e there was a demand for them. Currently, the main demand for such weapons comes from goverments, thus if large-scale goverments did not exist, there would be less demand for nuclear weapons, it would not make sense for private firms to construct more 'nukes'.




Because, clearly, removing minimum wage laws and the dole will fix problems like unemployment!

Might I add that unemployment in Australia is at an optimal level? If unemployment falls too low, it constrains growth, as there is a small or non-existent pool of hirable labour.
you seem to be suggesting unemployment is a good thing..it's not.



I'm not sure removing taxation would change much anyway. Everyone would suddenly be richer and the cost of items would increase such that they were as expensive as before. Although certainly the poor would be poorer, and the rich would be richer.
no.



Oh, so you're not selfish now? I wish you guys could decide. Half of you twits try to convince us selfishness is a good thing and the more selfish you are the better, and the other half try to convince us it's not selfishness at all.
You seem to confuse selfishness with self-interest. Individual self-interest is the single most important factor in economic growth (and survival).


Personally I dont see the point in contriving these arbitrary politcal labels, and debating 'what if'.
It's important to realise 'mans' inate tendency to construct a social heirarchy, i.e. goverments in some form or another will always exist, and there is utility in such organisations (even if GDP could be slightly higher).

The important question should be, 'when and where should the allocation of resources be determined by the free market'.
(btw I do think libertarians are right on drug laws)
 
E

Empyrean444

Guest
lol..? the 'system' would design and trade nukes..?
Under an anarcho-capitalist system (if one can even exist) nuclear weapons would only exist if individuals had incentives to build them, i.e there was a demand for them. Currently, the main demand for such weapons comes from goverments, thus if large-scale goverments did not exist, there would be less demand for nuclear weapons, it would not make sense for private firms to construct more 'nukes'.
False argument; it follows the line of thought that because currently govts are the ones 'demanding' nukes, that, in their absence, no one else would have a comparable desire and subsequent demand. The potency that nukes would give to a private firm willing to use violence and the threat of violence to gain their ends is gargantuan and is obviously recognisable. I have little faith in any moral qualms acting against the acquisition of such abominable weapons. And, as with the 'evil' states, once one firm gets them, so must many of its market competitors acquire them for the sake of self-protection and self interest.

My problem with this anarchic ideal is that it almost assumes that 'private firms' (or whatever you term the owners of the means of production in such a hypothetical circumstance) will not be willing or able to use violence or the thereof to enhance their position or further their interests.
 

yoddle

is cool
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
1,129
Location
nowhere man
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
This hasn't happened before. Unless you're counting Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia as 'modern nation states'.
Cbf reading rest cos I hate overly long posts but of course Germany and the USSR are modern nation states. What else can they be? Anyways I think he was talking more just about the incidence of fully-blown state vs. state war anyway. Which definitely has killed hundred of millions.
 

John McCain

Horse liberty
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
473
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
I'm glad most Australian states have decriminalised marijuana.
No states have decriminalized marijuana. WA and SA (places no one actually lives) have moved to a system of solely issuing fines for possession of small amounts, but given all possession still holds a minimum penalty, and if you don't pay this fine you will end up in court, I think it's misleading to say this is 'decriminalized'. You avoid getting points on your record, but in every other way it's as fucked as the old system. It's not like the points mattered that much anyway, even a cannabis conviction won't prevent you from becoming a teacher etc...

In New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria and Tasmania (i.e. the states where the vast majority of the population lives) possession of any amount of cannabis is a criminal offence, it's not 'decriminalized' at all.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
352
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
False argument; it follows the line of thought that because currently govts are the ones 'demanding' nukes, that, in their absence, no one else would have a comparable desire and subsequent demand. The potency that nukes would give to a private firm willing to use violence and the threat of violence to gain their ends is gargantuan and is obviously recognisable. I have little faith in any moral qualms acting against the acquisition of such abominable weapons. And, as with the 'evil' states, once one firm gets them, so must many of its market competitors acquire them for the sake of self-protection and self interest.

My problem with this anarchic ideal is that it almost assumes that 'private firms' (or whatever you term the owners of the means of production in such a hypothetical circumstance) will not be willing or able to use violence or the thereof to enhance their position or further their interests.
wow...your an idiot
my argument was just saying that in a free market, 'nukes' would only exist to the extent they are demanded, and in such a world the level of demand would likely be smaller than it is currently.

and yeah you don't know what a 'firm' is, firms supply goods and services, no one 'demands' (let alone buys) violence/annihilation.

odd stuff.
 

murphyad

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
416
Location
Newy, brah!
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
wow...your an idiot
my argument was just saying that in a free market, 'nukes' would only exist to the extent they are demanded, and in such a world the level of demand would likely be smaller than it is currently.
I present you with your argument, re-quoted for convenience:

Under an anarcho-capitalist system (if one can even exist) nuclear weapons would only exist if individuals had incentives to build them, i.e there was a demand for them. Currently, the main demand for such weapons comes from goverments, thus if large-scale goverments did not exist, there would be less demand for nuclear weapons, it would not make sense for private firms to construct more 'nukes'.
Yes it is true that individual demand for nuclear weapons comes mostly from governments. Why do you think that is? Because government regulates their purchase. What if this regulation were removed: who could say what the level of private demand might be? It may be the case that every man and his politically-extremist paramilitary organisation would want to get in on the cut. Therefore your assertion that demand would likely be lower is totally without credence, unfortunately.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top