Ayaan Hirsi Ali (4 Viewers)

[arcticdbk]

You object to something the prophet did.

cool beans.

Um yeah, 1400 years later

That was then, this is now

That was them, this is me

 

[Yo1anda]

Um yeah, 1400 years later

That was then, this is now

That was them, this is me

I thought the good thing about Islam was that, unlike Christianity, it hadn't been watered down and defiled by the masses.

 

[Yo1anda]

Islams cherry picking their religious tenets can only be a good thing, that's what brought Christianity out of the dark ages (and into the dim ages, lol)

But you can't then turn around and say the fundamentalists are wrong about the religion itself

I have to disagree.

They call themselves Muslims.

They have kids, kids have kids. One kid decides to actually read the Qur'an properly.

Grows a beard, forces wife into niqab. Becomes terrorist.

Hell breaks loose.

 

[arcticdbk]

Things change, and things are applied differently. It is not possible to maintain a 1400 year old lifestyle to the bone today. And this is widely accepted by many Muslims, and it is only expected.

And to add to that, Australian law forbids polygamy, and I live by the law of the land. If a person wants to have a polygamous relationship they can carry themselves to Saudi Arabia for all I care.

 

[runoutofsleep]

you're a muslim insofar as you identify as one

but you do not derive your moral beliefs from islam

you choose various interpretations of islam based on your existing moral beliefs, derived from reason and experience

 

[speak]

now export this to the middle east

 

[arcticdbk]

you're a muslim insofar as you identify as one

but you do not derive your moral beliefs from islam

you choose various interpretations of islam based on your existing moral beliefs, derived from reason and experience

I use the essence of Islam and do engage in the rituals of Islam, and I believe in God, but I have 'ditched' some of the patriarchal sentiments because as far as I am concerned, it does not apply today

But other than that, ye pretty much

 

[arcticdbk]

now export this to the middle east

Lol, the Middle East in many parts is generally like this despite what people think and has been like this for a while

And this is why I go on about how you lot should just ignore the media and its wild representation of Muslims, because it hardly reflects how Muslims practice their faith today

 

[runoutofsleep]

essentially, not muslim

who are you to say which tenets are the "essence of islam"?

 

[arcticdbk]

Excuse me?...I am Muslim.

Have you not read my posts already? Has my point not been established?

 

[Yo1anda]

muslim feminist
the worst

 

[runoutofsleep]

you're also not-muslim

you can't set aside the parts of the religion you don't like and still call yourself an adherent of that religion

to do so you necessarily rely on some external criteria by which you decide which parts you set aside and which you keep. you value this external criteria more highly than you do islam

 

[arcticdbk]

muslim feminist
the worst

whinge whinge fucking whinge

you're also not-muslim

you can't set aside the parts of the religion you don't like and still call yourself an adherent of that religion

to do so you necessarily rely on some external criteria by which you decide which parts you set aside and which you keep. you value this external criteria more highly than you do islam

I am giving you the basic low down of myself in a few posts

You cannot just blatantly say that I am not Muslim. I'm a secular Muslim who believes that religion is something to be practiced personally (however so), and that it should be seperated from the state and politics

 

[zombie omie jay]

lol

 

[mirakon]

The Hanafites: When the Muslim falls away from Islam -- may Allah forbid it! -- he is first asked to return. If he has doubts, he is to express them; one can then clear up his doubts, for it may be that he truly has questions with regard to the faith -- questions in need of explanation. By this it is possible to deal with his evil deed (sharr) through the best of two possibilities: death or the acceptance of Islam. However, it remains desirable to offer him the acceptance of Islam again, although this is not obligatory, because the message had already been offered him once.

If he needs time to reconsider, it is desirable that the judge allow him a three-day extension, during which he is to remain in custody. If he accepts Islam thereafter, it is good; if not, he is to be killed, for Allah says to "kill those who believe in many gods" (Sura al-Tawba 9:5), without fixing a deadline. The Prophet also said, "Kill him who changes his religion," without mentioning a delay, because the apostate is surely a hostile unbeliever and no asylum seeker (musta'min) who has asked for protection; furthermore, he is no dhimmi (a non-Muslim under Islamic rule), for no poll tax is demanded of him. Therefore, he should be killed without reservation.

The Hanafites are of the opinion that it does not matter whether the apostate is a freeman or a slave.

The Shafi´ites: If a Muslim becomes apostate -- Allah forbid! -- the imam should grant him three days' grace; he is not to be killed before this period expires, for the apostasy of a Muslim from his faith often results from his confusion. Therefore a grace period is necessary, so that he can reflect, and that the truth can become clear to him again. We, the Shafi´ites, have determined that this time should consist of three days, whether he asks for it or not.

It has been told about our master, Umar b. al-Khattab -- may Allah be pleased with him -- that a man was sent to him by Abu Mosa al-Ashaari. Umar asked him: "Do you have any good news?"; the man said, "Yes, a man apostatised from Islam, so we killed him." Umar said: "Did you first take him into custody for three days, giving him one loaf per day, so that he may repent? O Allah -- you are a witness -- I was not there, neither did I give any orders, nor did I concede to that action." This story was mentioned by Malek the imam in his book, Al-Muwattu, to the effect that Umar disapproved of what they did. Thus, one can conclude from this event that an apostate must be given a three-day time limit before he is put to death.

If the apostate repents, or utters the two main articles of faith (al-shahadatain), or confesses faith in the oneness of Allah (monotheism), he will be released. But if he does not repent, he is to be killed by the sword immediately. This punishment cannot be evaded, because apostasy is the most atrocious and severe form of blasphemy, and it deserves the cruellest judgement, which invalidates all of a Muslim's previous deeds. Allah says: "And for those among you who allow themselves to be led astray from their religion, and who die as unbelievers, their works are invalid now and in eternity" (Sura al-Baqara 2:217). If the apostate returns to Islam, he need not repeat the pilgrimage which had been performed before the apostasy. This is unlike the Hanafites who said: If the apostate repents, he must repeat the pilgrimage, because his apostasy has nullified it.

The Malikites: The imam should grant the apostate three days and nights -- beginning with the day on which his apostasy was committed, and not with the day of his unbelief or the day upon which the accusation was brought against him. The three days of confinement are to follow in succession, and the day on which the apostasy was proven should not be considered as part of the time limit, if it was preceded by dawn. During his confinement, he is to be given food and drink, which are to be paid out of his assets, while his wife and children are not being cared for by his assets. If he has no assets, he is to be cared for by the public treasury or House of Property (bait ulmal), whether he promises to repent or not. He is not to be beaten in prison, even if he persists in his apostasy. He is surely to be given many chances to repent within this time-limit, in order to prevent bloodshed or punishment resulting from doubts. This should clear up his doubts and give him time to reconsider, so that he may change his mind and repent. If the judge decides on his death before the end of this grace period, his decision is legally binding, because he has ruled on a disputed issue. If he repents after three days, he is to be released; but if he does not, he is to be killed on the third day, at sunset. His corpse is to be neither washed nor embalmed. He is to be buried neither in the cemeteries of the Muslims nor of the unbelievers (kuffar), for he is not one of them, having once been a Muslim. In fact, his body is to be thrown upon the ground as a public example.

The Hanbalites: There are two opinions on this issue. Some believe that the apostate should be given a period for repentance consisting of three days, while others are of the opinion that he is to be granted no time for reconsideration but should only be offered Islam. If he accepts the offer, he is to be set free; if not, he is to be put to death immediately.


Light of Life: The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam

These are the opinions of a bunch of obscure sects of Islam. None of this is supported by the actual original Islamic text of the Qur'an, in fact the very disunity of the nature of these sects is against Islamic principles. Hence their word is insufficient in mounting opposition against the religion itself, but rather the proponents of these teachings should be criticized e.g. self-styled extremist scholars.

 

[Yo1anda]

These are the opinions of a bunch of obscure sects of Islam. None of this is supported by the actual original Islamic text of the Qur'an, in fact the very disunity of the nature of these sects is against Islamic principles. Hence their word is insufficient in mounting opposition against the religion itself, but rather the proponents of these teachings should be criticized e.g. self-styled extremist scholars.

Sura 9:74

They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

I'd take anything Yo1anda posts with the utmost suspicion, given where she gets her information.

 

[Yo1anda]

These are the opinions of a bunch of obscure sects of Islam. None of this is supported by the actual original Islamic text of the Qur'an, in fact the very disunity of the nature of these sects is against Islamic principles. Hence their word is insufficient in mounting opposition against the religion itself, but rather the proponents of these teachings should be criticized e.g. self-styled extremist scholars.

Do you refute the Hadiths of Bukhari?

 

[Yo1anda]

I'd take anything Yo1anda posts with the utmost suspicion, given where she gets her information.

...The Qur'an?

 

[arcticdbk]

More like the enternet quran

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all muslims are terrorists and want everyone dead and only terrorists are real muslims and every other normal muslim is not a muslim so