Libya (2 Viewers)

[Climactic]

Let's assume that this is the worst case scenario:
1) the highest estimated death toll of 2,000 by France is correct
2) the violence is going to go on for a week at least
3) that Gaddafi is going to fight to the "last drop of blood"
4) there is potential for at least 500 more civilians to die (my random estimate) from attacks by the army and African mercenaries that are apparently being brought in
5) there is potential for thousands more than that to die from chemical weapon attacks similar to the ones done by Iraq on Kurds

The Libyan ambassador to the UN has called for international intervention. The US has put sanctions on the country and closed its embassy there.
Should the US/NATO actually act to stop it though? After all this has finished then Gaddafi commits suicide, or is arrested by the anti-regime militants and executed or carted off the Hague to face war crimes charges, what kind of regime will come in its place?

If the US/NATO does not act, one that is actively hostile towards the US for not stopping further civilian casualties.
If the US/NATO does act, one that is grateful to the US for stopping further civilian casualties and might give it cheap oil or something.

 

[funkshen]

Qaddafi probably has a shitheap of blackmail material against a few Western governments and leaders. There really isn't any place for this blackmail unless his life is being threatened.

 

[Rothbard]

The US has no right to enter a sovereign nation

 

[funkshen]

Any sovereign member of the UN can invade another sovereign member of the UN if the UNSC authorises it.

 

[cosmo kramer]

I'm officially cheering for Qadaffi. If he loses, the boats will be on their way.

Moammar Gadhafi, in recent years, has enjoyed a cynical role as Europe’s border guard against African immigrants. Italian ministers now warn that if his Libyan government collapses, people will flow across the Mediterranean.

Chaos in Libya has led to immediate concern that hundreds of thousands of immigrants could head for Europe. Italy’s interior minister, ahead of an EU summit in Brussels, called on Thursday for European help in dealing with a looming “catastrophic humanitarian emergency.”

Other Italian officials warned earlier this week of a wave of refugees fleeing violence that Moammar Gadhafi’s regime has reportedly visited on its own people. But if Libya collapses into anarchy, some observers have said, it could become an immigration route for far more people from sub-Saharan Africa.

A ‘Biblical Exodus’

“We know what to expect when the Libyan national system falls,” said Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini on Wednesday, according to the UK Telegraph. “A wave of 200,000 to 300,000 immigrants.”

“These are estimates, and on the low side,” he added. “It is a Biblical exodus. It’s a problem that no Italian should underestimate.”

Over 5,000 migrants have already sailed from Tunisia to the Italian island of Lampedusa since the Tunisian government fell in January. But post-uprising conditions in Tunisia are mild compared to reports this week from Libya, where Gadhafi’s security forces have fired on protesters as well as on guest workers who have now started to flee across the borders into Egypt and Tunisia.

“They’re shooting at civilians and children,” a shocked Egyptian at Libya’s eastern border told SPIEGEL ONLINE on Wednesday.

Gadhafi, Guarding the Gates

Gadhafi in recent years has played up his role as a bulwark against African immigrants to Europe. Italy and Libya began joint naval patrols in 2008 to stop boatloads of illegal or trafficked immigrants from crossing the Mediterranean, and last year Libya signed a €50 billion deal with the European Union to manage its borders as a “transit country” for sub-Saharan Africans.

Italian Foreign Minister Frattini said that some 2.5 million people in Libya—about a third of the population—are non-Libyan immigrants who would flee if the government fell.

Gadhafi himself has enjoyed stoking these fears. “Europe will become black,” he said last December, if European leaders failed to cooperate with him on immigration controls.

Welcome to Germany?

Amnesty International is calling on other countries to ease the burden on Italy if institutions there are overwhelmed. “Germany, as the largest and most economically powerful country in Europe, has a special responsibility to act,” said Monika Lüke, head of Amnesty International in Germany. “Germany has to finally end its obstructionist attitude regarding a common refugee policy in the EU.”

Ironically the head of Italy’s anti-immigrant Northern League party, Umberto Bossi, made similar statements. “If they come, we will just send them to France and Germany,” he said according to the Telegraph.

But German Interior Minister Thomas de Maizière, on his way to the EU summit in Brussels, which begins on Thursday, warned Thursday morning that rumors of a refugee crisis could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Europe, he told the German broadcaster ZDF, should try to promote stability in North Africa. “People stay in countries with stable democracies,” he said.

The two-day meeting in Brussels is a routine summit for EU interior and justice ministers, but the crisis in Libya will force immigration to the top of the agenda.

I hope be bombs these fucks into the dirt. LET'S GO QADAFFI!!! ONYA MATE!

 

[Rothbard]

Any sovereign member of the UN can invade another sovereign member of the UN if the UNSC authorises it.

Yeah and the US can execute people who have committed crimes.

What's your point?

 

[mirakon]

i don't see why people are supporting Gaddafi here. Yes, he's tough but he is also a freakin lunatic

 

[cosmo kramer]

Qadaffi is awesome because he is refusing to roll over and die like a cowardly beta bitch. There is no glory in being a poltroon, as Mubarak clearly demonstrated. He's kicking arse and taking names.

 

[mirakon]

Qadaffi is awesome because he is refusing to roll over and die like a cowardly beta bitch. There is no glory in being a poltroon, as Mumbrak clearly demonstrated. He's kicking arse and taking names.

yes but he is not doing it because he is brave, he's doing it because he's insane.

 

[cosmo kramer]

It's insane to desire power?

The meek do not inherit the earth.

From the standpoint of a pragmatic Westerner, there is every reason to hope that Gadaffi prevails here. The elimination of his regime will evidently inundate the West with streams of undesirable Musselmen, and Western governments, being the pussies that they are, will of course oblige them. It's not like his toppling will actually bring about any significant changes in Libya anyway. Who cares?

 

[mirakon]

no but the following is:

He defended the Taliban and Somali Pirates. He also claimed that a foreign military was responsible for the H1N1 outbreak, accused Israel of assassinating John F. Kennedy, and called for a one-state solution for Palestine and Israel, and referred to Barack Obama as "son of Africa".

It is alleged that he started the tradition of the 'bunga bunga' and told berlusconi about it

He believes AIDS is not a problem

He asked for 200 beautiful women in his visit to Italy and then tried to convert them all to Islam

His speeches are interpreted as psychotic rambles

Instead of staying in hotels whenever he visits other countries he brings his own luxury tent

I rest my case

 

[cosmo kramer]

He asked for 200 beautiful women in his visit to Italy and then tried to convert them all to Islam

That's not a bad thing. I think we should have hotty immigration visas as well.

Instead of staying in hotels whenever he visits other countries he brings his own luxury tent

If opulence is a measure of one's insanity, then Obama is far crazier than Gadaffi. He visited India recently and was escorted by a fucking supercarrier group. I would like my own private train.

He believes AIDS is not a problem

It isn't in the Muslim world. AIDS is a self-inflicted disease, primarily the plight of heroin abusers, the promiscuous and homosexuals. It is the scourge of the irresponsible and the sodomite.

 

[Climactic]

The only good poster on this forum is a Nazi.

 

[Cianyx]

Like Mubarak, Gaddafi is desperately trying to implicate the west in these uprisings and polarize the struggle into "west versus arabs." If any of the major international bodies tried to assist the uprising it would taint it. If and when he falls you can bet your bottom dollar that the west will pump a wads of cash, peacekeepers and do everything and anything to ensure an effective transition into a liberal democracy but not before then lest they jeopardise it.

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009
So it begins

 

[Climactic]

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009
So it begins

I can't find that story confirmed anywhere else. Until AP/AFP/Reuters writes a story on it, it's bullshit.

 

[Climactic]

Holy sheesh, peoples getting straight up killed:

[youtube]HU505bLJSO4[/youtube]


[youtube]KX9pA9LkkX0[/youtube]

 

[theMaster]

I myself, am of Libyan origin and I think I can explain the situation pretty well. Basically, there is Gaddafi, and then there is Libya. For 42 years libyans have been under this brutal regime, libyans know gaddafi, and they knew exactly what would happen when the revolted against him. Dating back in history, many libyans disagreed with the chad war, and were reluctant to take orders to shoot the chadian people. So what he did was dissemble the army, so the army had no real power and hired foreign mercenaries. These mercenaries were from Nigeria and Chad, and other African countries. Those guys were ruthless (if you've seen blood diamonds you would know what I'm talking about) They would kill for cash and Gaddafi could supply that. Libya is a rich country, and being a population of 6 million, everyone should be enjoying quiet the life and opportunity. Instead he pocketed all its wealth, left as much as 30% of Libyans under the poverty line. In Egypt and Tunisia, things are much different, the army had some sort of protection for the people and hence not as much casualties.

What is happening now is that army personal in Libya opened their vaults for the libyan protesters and weapons were being handed out. This helped Benghazi a lot (Benghazi has always been a city that tried to get rid of gaddafi and enjoy the luxury of democracy). So the protesters were able to get rid of the mercenaries and free itself from the gaddafi regime. Ofcourse the army soldiers who refused to obey orders and gave weapons to protesters were shot dead, 23 were shown on camera, with bullets in their heads. This was then followed by the eastern parts of Darna and Bayda who faught just as hard. Now the Libya is a big country and there is quiet the distance between east and west. The city of Misurata was on the western parts and there is quiet the relation between Misurata and Benghazi. Misurata is pretty much known for its hard brutal men and women who stand along their people when something like this hits its neighbours. The revolted as well. So much of the country has been freed, but the capital city which is central to the downfalling of Gaddafi.

Gaddafi knows this and has pretty much placed really tight security and mercenaries all over the place. Giving orders to shoot anyone that comes out. Tripoli heard of the massacre of Benghazi and were chanting "With our blood and our souls, would we avenge you Benghazi", but they were barracaded by bullets and machine guns. Air strikes to say the least. Now they are trying to assemble themselves, just 50 km away from Tripoli, Alzawyia revolted and were successful. Today, Gaddafi's son said that he will show those people of Alzawyia and will give them a good lesson.

Libyans have always been tough people who would die for their countrymen, justice and liberty. There aren't many of us in Australia but meeting them would show how good and friendly these people are. I myself have family and friends there. My uncle happens to be a paramedic and we finally reached him last night. Said that his going mental with all these bodies and the way they have been killed. Using .50 Calibre bullets on protesters. Now ofcourse libyans need international support, however libyans are skeptical about thoughts of US military support since they don't want what happened to Iraq, to happen to them. They are afraid that some of these countries not only have humanitarian incentives, but rather financial gains that come along it. You know, using an excuse to invade the country, just like of which happened to Iraq. I think what they would appreciate is supply of weapons to the people and food supplies.

I know I rambled a lot, and there is quiet a number of things that I have missed, but this is pretty much the situation happening, there are 100s of videos on youtube. My solidarity goes to the Libyan people against this evil guy. I mean there is evil, and then there is this guy, which re-defines the term itself. Lets all try to hear some real news, become one not only as Australian citizens, but as global ones too. There are much more important things in the world than Justin Beiber's haircut.

 

[Funky Monk]

Qadaffi is awesome because he is refusing to roll over and die like a cowardly beta bitch. There is no glory in being a poltroon, as Mubarak clearly demonstrated. He's kicking arse and taking names.

Ugh. You're making me feel ill.

 

[cosmo kramer]

why

that was obviously not serious

i just hope qadaffi wins because if he loses camp of the saints begins

 

[Funky Monk]

i just hope qadaffi wins

this. ugh.