Abortion debate (2 Viewers)

[kateri88]

i am all for the basic rights of women, but one of the most selfish things i feel is to value your life as any more important than another. from the moment of conception, the child has the right to life. whether or not you choose to bring that child up is a totally different matter- people wait years on adoption lists- but i just don't see how you could put yourself, and the child through an abortion. the rate of depression and severe psychological disturbances from women who have had abortions is astonishing and the methods of abortion, especially late term, is horrificly inhumane!!

 

[bshoc]

That doesn't make her a whore. Just because she enjoys sex and has it, or else there are ALOT of male whores around the place.

There sure is. A slut is a slut in my opinion, male or female.

 

[ur_inner_child]

you kids gotta calm down a bit...but seriously, it's as simple as this...

a) abortion is morally wrong
b) abortion is not the only option open to people these days
c) you wouldn't need an abortion if you took proper precautions

therefore abortion should be illegalised.

a) morals differ from one person to the other, regardless of whether its to do with abortion or not
b) true, although the consequences are very differing
c) people with their tubes tied could potentially have children. how do rape victims take proper precautions?

I don't want to say right now that I take sides but I do see flaws in your unjustified argument.

 

[ur_inner_child]

There sure is. A slut is a slut in my opinion, male or female.

You seem to have missed the point
As *minka* was implying, most guys don't think that way.

In fact most cultures and perhaps 90% of the world does not think that way.

 

[veridis]

with current medical technology, yeah, 22 weeks is the earliest a child can survive, in a decade who knows, we may be able to create machines to support children a few weeks, even a few days post conception.

well then in a few decades there will be alternatives to abortions. that doesnt somehow make abortions murder though. right now the options are abortion or full term.

The medical world gets money for abortions, these doctors crack childrens skulls in and suck out brains with a vaccum tube

do i even have to dignify this with an answer? doctors in abortion clinics are among the lowest paid and almsot all do it for moral reasons. not to mention to many strict regulations and ethical panels regarding all medical fields which are particularly strict on abortions.
also please dont try to convince people with emotion "crack childrens skulls". this should be a scientific debate.

and no not the entire medical profession, many doctors in the US refuse to perform abortions, and pharmasists refuse to sell abortion drugs.
remember this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act

and remember how it was passed? through evoking the "interfering with interstate commerce" clause of constitutional law.

Its a derivative of the whole "higher mental functions" and "self awareness" debate - I presented cases where people were not capable of higher mental function or self aware, thus make a mokery of zergrushs definition ... never make recount stuff again.

read: you made it up in an attempt to demonise my position. much like your references to murder of coma/sleeping, references to nazis, "left wing VSU supporter" rant and much more

The fact still stands that a mental condition can exist one year, be completely non-existant the next, and then be back in the next year based on nothing more than concensus, its a joke. Your profession started out by drilling holes in the head and electric shock therapy remember? Now you just use chemicals to fuck with peoples minds, same shit.

i break my arm and its healed in a year. does that mean it never existed? all medicine started out with "drilling into peoples heads" as you call it. much like chem started out as alchemy. it doesnt make either field less legitimate

 

[bshoc]

You seem to have missed the point
As *minka* was implying, most guys don't think that way.

In fact most cultures and perhaps 90% of the world does not think that way.

Do you think for 90% of the world? Thats a very long stretch of a comment to make, seeing as how only 30% of the worlds population live in a developed, liberal country. And most of the world is religious - then you also have to include people like myself, definitely not looking good for you. Fact it, you're a pathetic minority overall.

 

[veridis]

That wasnt my point, it was to note that many signatories in acts like these ARE people directly from the medical profession.

most of whom are motivated by non-medical factors[read: religion].
the majority of medical practitioners would agree that abortion is not murder. the morals of it aside they would agree that that a foetus is not a complete human being and killing of it is not murder.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Do you think for 90% of the world? Thats a very long stretch of a comment to make, seeing as how only 30% of the worlds population live in a developed, liberal country.

Pardon, but I did say "perhaps", and developed, liberal countries do not all think the same.

I'd remind you of the new found extreme conservatism that America has adopted, as well as the many religions that value a girls "virginity" moreso than a guys'. And considering the most common religions, I'd say its safe to say most religions.

If I had to cut the number down, I'll say 80% at the very least.

I do remind you that we are talking about how more people will regard women as sluts if she engages in sexual activities, than they will with a man that has the same apetite.

 

[veridis]

Do you think for 90% of the world? Thats a very long stretch of a comment to make, seeing as how only 30% of the worlds population live in a developed, liberal country. And most of the world is religious - then you also have to include people like myself, definitely not looking good for you. Fact it, you're a pathetic minority overall.

she doesnt think for them and 90% is obviously a guess but a developed society is not needed to call someone a slut. one of the major hurdles in fighting aids in africa is the fact that many females dont want to be tested due to the social stigma attatched to it, one factor of which is being called a slut.
in developed countries people are LESS liekly to think someone a slut if they engage in safe sex compared to third world countries who often consider any sexual activity wrong(much like your position)

 

[*Minka*]

Whoever calls you a whore, they're right, how can you expect people to respect anyone who doesent even respect themselves? I've never gotten "laid", although I've had about 100 opportunities, you know why, partly becuase no-one with a brain wants to screw sluts like yourself (whose numbers are absolutely overflowing, making you both cheap, useless and expendable), partly becuase some poeple still have a brain



And with any luck, we'll soon be living in a society where you'll hang for that decision, Roe v Wade is about to get flung out of the US supreme court by the conservative justices, sweet justice

You know what a slut means? It is someone that sleeps around. I don't do that - it was with the same boyfriend I had for three years before he moved in Melbourne. It wasn't multiple men, so get your facts straight. Secondly, I am not cheap, I have a brain and I have self respect and unlike you, I am not a Chauvinist.

That sounds like a society from hell. No women should be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy. Of course, not that your lot care about women.

 

[bshoc]

well then in a few decades there will be alternatives to abortions. that doesnt somehow make abortions murder though. right now the options are abortion or full term.

An alternative to murder is a good one, nobody is asking for a law that the woman keeps her child, just that she not kill it for her own convenience. Expections for rape, incest, threat to the womans health and serious genetic defects - but thats it.

also please dont try to convince people with emotion "crack childrens skulls". this should be a scientific debate.

Well ok then, scientifically, at first the unborn infants skull is penetrated with a sharp metalic opject, usually a sort of small metalic pipe with both ends closed off, then an air sucking tube connected to a vaccum is inserted where the childs chranial matter is sucked out - scientific enough for you?

read: you made it up in an attempt to demonise my position. much like your references to murder of coma/sleeping, references to nazis, "left wing VSU supporter" rant and much more

And in the face of it, your opinion doesent hold up does it?

i break my arm and its healed in a year. does that mean it never existed? all medicine started out with "drilling into peoples heads" as you call it. much like chem started out as alchemy. it doesnt make either field less legitimate

No becuase one can always diagnose a broken arm.

 

[*Minka*]

i am all for the basic rights of women, but one of the most selfish things i feel is to value your life as any more important than another. from the moment of conception, the child has the right to life. whether or not you choose to bring that child up is a totally different matter- people wait years on adoption lists- but i just don't see how you could put yourself, and the child through an abortion. the rate of depression and severe psychological disturbances from women who have had abortions is astonishing and the methods of abortion, especially late term, is horrificly inhumane!!

I don't believe that a two day old fertalised egg is life and its rights are not more important than mine because I am living and it is not.

Secondly, late term abortions are VERY, VERY RARE and are most commonly done in cases of severe handicaps to the fetus that were not able to be diagnosed earlier, not because a woman is baulking out at 7 months.

 

[bshoc]

Pardon, but I did say "perhaps", and developed, liberal countries do not all think the same.

I'd remind you of the new found extreme conservatism that America has adopted, as well as the many religions that value a girls "virginity" moreso than a guys'. And considering the most common religions, I'd say its safe to say most religions.

If I had to cut the number down, I'll say 80% at the very least.

I do remind you that we are talking about how more people will regard women as sluts if she engages in sexual activities, than they will with a man that has the same apetite.

Again you're making statements that you have no hope of proving - you only speak for yourself - not the other 6.5 billion people on this planet you pretentious self-centered moron.

 

[bshoc]

You know what a slut means? It is someone that sleeps around. I don't do that - it was with the same boyfriend I had for three years before he moved in Melbourne. It wasn't multiple men, so get your facts straight. Secondly, I am not cheap, I have a brain and I have self respect and unlike you, I am not a Chauvinist.

Well you never made any of that clear - although you truly made sure to sound like a slut - nevertheless I take back my comments.

That sounds like a society from hell. No women should be forced to keep an unwanted pregnancy. Of course, not that your lot care about women.

If it is the womans fault, she should not be premitted choice.

 

[veridis]

An alternative to murder is a good one, nobody is asking for a law that the woman keeps her child, just that she not kill it for her own convenience. Expections for rape, incest, threat to the womans health and serious genetic defects - but thats it.

cause right now we have such an oversupply of potential foster parents yes. adoption is not a realistic alternative, at least not with the current rates of abortion.

Well ok then, scientifically, at first the unborn infants skull is penetrated with a sharp metalic opject, usually a sort of small metalic pipe with both ends closed off, then an air sucking tube connected to a vaccum is inserted where the childs chranial matter is sucked out - scientific enough for you?

apart from the fact it isnt an unborn infant but a foetus at an early stage of development and that you should also state not all abortions are performed like this and that some are actualy performed on embryos not even at foetal stage.
just out of interest what is your position on things such as the morning after pill or early abortions that are performed on the embryos before they reach any human semblance.

And in the face of it, your opinion doesent hold up does it?

in your eyes, no, in mine and the law, yes.

no becuase one can always diagnose a broken arm.

how? by observation. oh wait thats how we diagnise psych disorders too. sure its harder to accurately diagnose psych disorders but theres still the potential for error in all fields. i wont even use my "all experience of reality is subjective thus nobody can be sure of diagnosis" argument.

 

[veridis]

Again you're making statements that you have no hope of proving - you only speak for yourself - not the other 6.5 billion people on this planet you pretentious self-centered moron.

same applies to you man. although most in the third world do agree with you on positions like who is a slut and abortion so she was actualy right on this count.

 

[ur_inner_child]

I can understand a lot of those who support abortion and we're they're coming from, since I use to think the same way.

But according to a lot of people's arguments, such as kateri88, it would also mean that morning after pills are also murder.

This I most definatley do not understand.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Again you're making statements that you have no hope of proving - you only speak for yourself - not the other 6.5 billion people on this planet you pretentious self-centered moron.

Excuse me but every single post I have made has been civil, non abusive and very refrained from making an opinion on abortions.

I will rephrase

MOST people will regard a woman a slut moreso than a man with a sexual appetite.

This does not need proving. It's common sense.

 

[bshoc]

cause right now we have such an oversupply of potential foster parents yes. adoption is not a realistic alternative, at least not with the current rates of abortion.

Actually there are people on adoption waiting lists. Some of them actually have to source from overseas.

apart from the fact it isnt an unborn infant but a foetus at an early stage of development and that you should also state not all abortions are performed like this and that some are actualy performed on embryos not even at foetal stage.
just out of interest what is your position on things such as the morning after pill or early abortions that are performed on the embryos before they reach any human semblance.

Morning after pills are acceptable, but they do present a danger to womans health - something you say you are crusading for.

Scientifically, and I think, that anything past the zygote stage (usually 1 week) is technically speaking human - before that theres maybe a grey area, maybe.

in your eyes, no, in mine and the law, yes.

Laws can be changed (and will ) be changed, shame we cant elect our judges.

how? by observation. oh wait thats how we diagnise psych disorders too. sure its harder to accurately diagnose psych disorders but theres still the potential for error in all fields. i wont even use my "all experience of reality is subjective thus nobody can be sure of diagnosis" argument.

No a broken arm is a broken arm, a broken mind is .. something beyond diagnosis, especially when their identification is based on a vote.

 

[wheredanton]

That doesn't make her a whore. Just because she enjoys sex and has it, or else there are ALOT of male whores around the place.

There sure is. A slut is a slut in my opinion, male or female.

So your definition of a whore is someone who enjoys sex?